Roxana is a coach, psychologist and consultant with a background in psychotherapy and transformational coaching. Originally from Romania, Transylvania (yes, the place with all the vampires), now living in beautiful Luzern on a farm surrounded by llamas, alpacas, dogs, cats and the stillness of breathtaking nature. 

With over a decade of experience, she currently supports individuals, leaders, and teams in achieving their goals and navigating personal and professional challenges. She delivers individual and team coaching, training and diverse learning experiences around human skills development, emotional agility, communication and collaboration, productivity and satisfaction, leadership and self-leadership. 

With a master’s degree in psychology and advanced training in cognitive behavior psychotherapy, Roxana previously worked as a CBT psychotherapist in private practice and on an online therapy platform for anxiety disorders. She was also the founder and president of an NGO active in the mental health awareness area. 

This and more is what we talk about with my guest, John Wegman!

John is a growth-oriented executive with a track record of driving business expansion, leading successful turnarounds, and implementing digital transformations. With over 20 years of industry experience, he has held key leadership positions with large enterprises including Vice President, Managing Director and Head of Strategy.  He started his career as a Materials Engineer and moved into equipment management within global supply chains, which after an MBA led to digitisation and data science. He has furthering enhanced his education to pursue a Master’s degree in AI & Robotics. Originally from the United States, he has worked on 4 continents and brings a genuinely global perspective to his work & leadership.

Eva Offermans is an entrepreneur and talent expert living in New York City. Originally from the Netherlands, she considers herself a global citizen, having lived in Antwerp (Belgium), Barcelona (Spain), Lausanne (Switzerland), and Krakow (Poland), before coming to the US in 2016. Eva holds a master’s degree in psychology from the University of Maastricht. She started her career as an agency recruiter and then worked for more than a decade in inhouse Talent Acquisition roles across different industries. Since 2020, Eva runs her own talent agency, Placement on Purpose, from New York, where she partners with mission-driven corporates and startups in the US and Europe to hire the best talent, for today and tomorrow. 

Eva Offermans is an entrepreneur and talent expert living in New York City. Originally from the Netherlands, she considers herself a global citizen, having lived in Antwerp (Belgium), Barcelona (Spain), Lausanne (Switzerland), and Krakow (Poland), before coming to the US in 2016. Eva holds a master’s degree in psychology from the University of Maastricht. She started her career as an agency recruiter and then worked for more than a decade in inhouse Talent Acquisition roles across different industries. Since 2020, Eva runs her own talent agency, Placement on Purpose, from New York, where she partners with mission-driven corporates and startups in the US and Europe to hire the best talent, for today and tomorrow. 

My guest speaker is Dean Summlar, VP Talent Mgmt & Learning, International at Schneider Electric. He has enjoyed a varied career in multiple industries including Retail, Healthcare as well as Energy Management & Automation. He started his career as a Commercial Manager leading large teams for UK Retailer Marks and Spencer Plc before diversifying his career into Human Resources in 2009.

Dean first joined Schneider Electric in UK & Ireland in 2014. In 2017 he and his wife moved to Australia where he joined the Pacific Human Resources Team and has held several roles before his most recent appointment as VP Talent Mgmt & Leaning. Besides business and HR, 

Dean has a passion for how technology, business strategy and commerce intersect with human behaviour. He believes it is HR’s responsibility to develop new ways of responding to the changing demands this brings and rapidly develop strategies and culture to enable the workforce to learn and adapt.

My guest is Timothee Bardet, Managing Director of Z Digital Agency, a collective of 50+ senior entrepreneurs in charge of companies digital growth, from A to Z. Tim has been building several tech companies over the past 15 years. 
He is also an investor, a board member and a mentor for several companies in domains such as the wine industry, e-commerce, SaaS and cybersecurity.

Listen to the podcast and watch the video!

https://youtu.be/tTaCgoqNaUA

I explore the topic with Timothee Bardet, Managing Director of Z Digital Agency, a collective of 50+ senior entrepreneurs in charge of companies digital growth, from A to Z. Tim has been building several tech companies over the past 15 years. 
He is also an investor, a board member and a mentor for several companies in domains such as the wine industry, e-commerce, SaaS and cybersecurity.

Listen to the podcast or watch the video on my YOUTUBE channel 
https://youtu.be/O19l1A239qE

00:07 Paola Granati: Hello, everyone and welcome back. This is part two of The World of Work live event. This live event, which took place in October, and it was really wrapping up the first season of The World of Work where the focus was on what to do if you are out there in the job market, which we do realize it is a complicated market out there. It's probably much more supply than there is a demand at the moment. So based on that, what are the some job strategies that you need to rethink, redo and maybe reset your expectations. So we continue the conversation with the guest panelists and in particular now, it is with Sunita Malhotra, talking about practical tips on what to do when you're repositioning yourself. Let's tune in.

00:53 Sunita Malhotra: So the first is, preparation. Preparation has three aspects to it. The first is figure out for yourself what your skills and competencies are and I call this bucket or circle, if you will, can do. "What can I do? So, what are my skills and competencies?" Because now the market is looking much more at skill sets. They're not looking at jobs. They're looking at skills and experiences. One very, very simple way to do that, very simple... Take a blank sheet of paper, write your list of accomplishments, things you're proud of, things you've done, literally from your childhood. My earliest memory is six, when I did something good and I was proud of. It sounds weird what I'm saying, but trust me, if you'd... And I've done this, so I know it works. If you write this list of accomplishments, from that you can pull out those skills and competencies, you will be surprised. You will think, "Oh my god, this was so obvious to me and oh there it is, "so it's a trend.

01:50 SM: So first, things you can do, many other ways to do it, but figure out your skills and competencies. Second, what is it that you want to do? This is that perfect moment to say, "What inspires me? What drives me? What's my passion?" Simple, blank sheet of paper, I love blank sheets of papers. Left column, what I love doing, what I can do 24 hours a day. Right column, what I absolutely hate doing and I will not do it, I'll never want to do in my life. Something to figure out what you want to do, that's a second. And the third is, "Who am I?" And I'm not gonna give you long lectures and value propositions and personal brands, there's loads of stuff on Google but, "Who am I? What is it that I am bringing to the table? Why me versus somebody else?" Thinking about that, and there are many, many ways to do that. But also, "What are my constraints" and we have to be realistic, sometimes it's a geographical constraint. Nowadays, there could be a financial constraint. So, what is it that if am I the only breadwinner in the family? Do I need to think about certain things? So, that third bucket is about who am I, but also what are my family and geographical, financial constraints, if you will.

03:01 SM: So what I can do, my skills and competencies, what I want to do, what my constraints are. The beauty of it is, that's the sweet spot. If you find the intersection of these three circles, if I picture them as a circle, that's the sweet spot. Once you figure that out, then you can just begin to build scenario. So, a scenario could be, I've been in the corporate life, I wanna continue in corporate life in the same industry. Another scenario could be, as Paola, I think very nicely said, she's at a stage in her life where she says, "I wanna be an entrepreneur and I'm testing up the market, and I'm trying something different." I know of somebody in my family who said, "I wanna do a startup, let me try that out." And it's endless because the market has flex things, virtual jobs. There's again, loads and loads and loads of research of... How the world of work is changing. So think of scenarios. Once you've done that, you're prepared. Okay, so that's first step, done. Check. Not so easy of course, it's hard work. It will probably take you a lot of time to actually do that, so invest, invest in yourself.

04:09 SM: The second step is targeting, and when I say targeting... Let's take a concrete example. If one of your scenarios is, "I'm in corporate life, I'm somewhere in the mid of my career, and I wanna continue in big corporate," then your scenario, your targeting starts with three things. Again, I love three things, as you can see. The first is target the list of industries. So what are the industries that you want to work in or might like to work in and what do you not want to work in. Now the not sometimes it's fascinating because it's very easy for us as humans to know what we don't want. Some people may say, "I don't agree with a gun industry, so I don't wanna work there", so simply again, what you want, what you don't want, but a target list of industries. Then from that, you can draw the target list of companies, very concretely saying. If I wanna work in the fast-moving consumer goods, I would like to work for Coca-Cola and I definitely would not like to work for P&G. So, target list of companies.

05:07 SM: And then most importantly is the target list of networks. Now networks, and there's a whole podcast on that. You can watch that... Watch part one and part two, right Paola, done by Paola, me and Susan. But simply networks is people you know. The obvious ones that are around you, recruiters, we have some already online, so all these... How many people are online now? Irina? 23, 25, today? 

05:34 Irina Bouras: We have 28.

05:35 SM: Yes. 28. So that's my call to fill in that Excel sheet because you just have 28 people multiplied by however many people we know. People you know, recruiters and social media, I mean that's a world out there. I know Irina is the millennial generation so she'll share more about it and Andreea. So there's LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, you name it, telegram, and I'm losing track myself. So, targeting industries, companies, networks, so that's the second step. Now you're prepared. You know your target. Hard work, hard work, guys and ladies and gentleman, I say because this is half the work and there will be moments where you will pull your hair out and you will say, "Oh my God, I'm not getting into the sweet spot." That's cool, because from chaos will come confusion, but you need to prepare, you need to invest because if you go slow, to go, you will go really fast. Trust me, and I'm saying this, having done it myself, having seen many of the execs but also younger people that I work with, having done that. So that's step two.

06:42 SM: And then the third, networking. I won't bore you with all the details, but again, three things. First, be very clear on your outcome and your objective. Networking is not about, "Oh, I wanna find a job." Be very clear on what you want from the network. It's a give and take. Paola is today, a friend of mine. I worked with her in Philip Morris. She's a friend. She's become my network 25, 30 years later. Did I know that at the moment? No. But there was a lot of give and take in the relationship along the way, so that's second. And third, remember, a network is not one person. So, I might know, I don't know, millions of people. Irina knows another million. That's your network. So it's not the four or five people that you choose, it's the people they know. So, be clear on the outcome, give and take, and again, it's a much broader network then you have. And now that you have your preparations, you know your target, you have a sense of your network, what do you actually do with the network, and th...

00:39 PG: And the first one was, once again, let's look into the numbers, the trends, the facts. What's the job market looking like at the moment? It's not as difficult as it seems. And we will hear about that. And then the second part is, Well, given this context, given these numbers, given the situation, what is it that we may need to do differently in terms of our job search strategy, but also more importantly, what do we need to do to reset some of the expectations that we have. 

01:08 PG: And that does include as well, the time that it's gonna take to find that next new job. And then thirdly, of course, how to keep fueling ourselves and our energies? So we make sure we stay resilient, we stay positive, we stay focused, and we stay confident. That not withstanding the potential nos, not withstanding the potential rejections, we still stay focused, move on and continue in our job search. So we kick it off with the external view together with Irina Bouras who helps us understand what are the numbers looking like? 

01:45 PG: Irina, tell us a little bit about what's the market out there? What is it like? 

01:49 Irina Bouras: Thank you for the introduction here, Paola. Obviously, representing the recruitment field, I can provide you with some data and a little bit of an overview of what's been happening in the last couple of months, actually. Because first and foremost, as I mentioned in my introduction, I'm very much specialized within the life science sector. So as part of a recruitment agency, we do cover a lot of roles on behalf of our clients within this spectrum. The reality of things is that in the last couple of months, in the last six months, to be exact, from March onwards, the volume of hiring has definitely decreased. And we've seen an impact from that side as well, because there's definitely not that same rhythm in terms of hiring and particularly within the life sciences, we've noticed that some of the projects and some of the positions that we were hiring for beforehand, have either been halted or just put on the bench for the moment. 

03:00 IB: However, in terms of what is expected from Q4, I have to say that the hiring plans will definitely strengthen towards the end of the year this year, in all EMEA countries, actually. To be exact, 24 out of 26 countries. When instead, in comparison to last year, I would say it's still not as high a volume, but it will definitely increase in comparison to what we've seen so far during this year. So your efforts will surely be appreciated during this period towards end of the year when we will see a lot of improvement in this area. 

03:41 IB: Regarding the overall view in industry and locations, geographies as well, I have to say, there have been noticed a few improvements in terms of particular countries. And the strongest labor markets are anticipated in Greece and Poland towards the end of this year. However, the weakest will be the UK and Croatia, to be exact. In fact, the Polish labor market seems to have bounced back, expecting an increase in the hiring pace in Q4 across all industries. And at the exact extreme opposite, we find the UK where employers continue to struggle with the hiring volumes actually, and there's still a market slump in seven out of nine industries covering telecommunications, also transport, finance and manufacturing. So things are still not recovering as fast as we would expect. However, there are also markets like Germany where the growth is pretty steady. So we don't necessarily see a huge increase, we also don't see a huge decrease. Things have been moving quite steadily. There is still an impact in the manufacturing industry that Germany has been struggling with in the last couple of years, not necessarily corona related, but this is definitely not expected to change right now. 

05:14 IB: If we move it along in the life science industry, actually, I still have to say, we are part of a very resilient industry. Around 55% of companies have said that they haven't decreased their volume of hiring, but 45% have. So things have stayed quite normal in 55% of companies as ManpowerGroup has actually surveyed. And we are very positive that this is not going to change. 

05:45 IB: In fact, it's going to increase towards the end of this year. So I do believe that this industry is still one that you need to keep an eye on. There's definitely an impact and a positive increase in CDMOs, for example, particularly related to manufacturing, biologics and gene therapies. Also, the medical technology industry has seen a good increase. And it's not necessarily a surprise, but the consumable sector has seen a huge increase on the back of the coronavirus crisis, actually. 

06:24 IB: But apart from the traditional industries, I would say there are a lot of other skill sets that are emerging as new skill sets in this spectrum. And I would definitely think that Mona has some things to share with us from the corporate side of things, apart from what we see, as a middleman, bridging the corporate to the job seekers. Mona, I will leave it to you. 

06:50 Mona Amin: Thank you so much for giving that big broad overview, that was really nice, especially hearing from what's happening in different geographies, different countries. From where we are sitting, the way we see it is that the sectors which are hiring pretty much revolve around essential work, science, technology. So if you just broadly split it into three, all the essential work which means food retail, online retail, medical, hospital sector, this is still hiring, but maybe not to the pace that they were in before, because they're not even letting people go so or people are not leaving as well very easily so the movement has reduced but it's still pretty much ongoing and you do see people who are needed in this sector. 

07:39 MA: There is also activity that's happening in the startup NGO sector, startup sector, care sector, and consulting. I think Sunita you went through that in our call yesterday that consulting is hiring as well and these are the requirements or the skills that are needed on a need basis in different organizations. So whether it's consulting, whether it's a start-up where there's a lot of movement happening, there are startups that are letting go of people but there are startups that are very actively hiring as well, it's mixed. So again, pretty much resonating towards these sectors but when we say these sectors are hiring, it doesn't mean that every job in these industries are up. And I give you example where I work, I work in the pharmaceutical sector, and there is not much activity around sales and marketing, and that's for a very good reason because that's affected tremendously because of COVID. 

08:43 MA: There is however a lot of need when it comes to functions that are critical to business whether it's regulatory, whether its quality, compliance, finance, these skill sets are there to stay. They will stay for a long time. And so you do see that when there are open positions in criti...

00:00 Mona Amin: We know one thing for sure, it will not be the same as what it was before. So it's important for us to kind of understand what are the skills, what are the things that are needed to make sure that we step into the new reality with a lot of confidence.

00:18 Paola Granati: Welcome everyone, this is going to be the last episode of this season of The World of Work, the Wild Podcast. And as Mona was alluding to Mona is the guest speaker of this episode, we do need to start equipping ourselves with different skill sets as we start embracing a different reality and a new future. But that's going to be for the next season, because today it's all about having an internal perspective, how companies have been adapting, how they've been changing in this new world, how are they looking at staffing? Are they hiring? Yes, no. And I did want to have that internal point of view before closing. And who better than Mona Amin to give us that internal perspective. Mona was born and brought up in India, she has over 20 years of international HR experience across India and Europe, as well as the Middle East and emerging markets. She is a change leader, when you see Mona walking down a corridor, you know there's going to be change happening and you know she's going to be successful at it.

01:24 PG: 'Cause she combines strong work ethics, strong people ethics, and she tells it like it is. And by the way, one small other detail, before we start, Mona has a degree in applied physics. So if any of you, ever want to have a conversation about the relativity theory about quantum physics, about the universe and about Einstein you know who to call. But for now, we're going to land back on this planet and talk about the world of work together with Mona Amin. Very privileged to have you because you'll be able to provide us with a little bit more of an internal perspective perhaps of how from your point of view, you've been seeing and witnessing the impact of this particular crisis, how it's been impacting the way people work, what you've been noticing, how are companies considering or perhaps reconsidering the ways of working as well also due to this crisis, not... People are saying it's just accelerated some of the changes, but love to hear your perspective from an internal point of view.

02:33 MA: Absolutely, this lockdown has given us a very good understanding of essential work, I never have come across this term and the meaning of this term to the extent that we have the... During the lockdown period, I think. We have stripped down essential, non-essential and come to the acceptance that a lot of us, including myself, our work is non-essential. Right? When it came to the real lockdown, those who were on the front line, those who had to go to work, no matter what, was a very different group, and it gives us a... The opportunity to be grateful and thankful that they were out there supporting during those difficult times, and it's still ongoing in many, many parts of the world. So it's interesting to first acknowledge the essential, non-essential work. Also for non-essential workers, like me, typical office-based work jobs even those like sales and marketing has completely redefined the setup.

03:48 MA: We are more and more getting inclined towards remote working, we are more and more getting the sense of work can happen from anywhere. I think this crisis has somehow helped us understand our adaptability, the nature of human beings to adapt into whatever circumstances they are into, and find ways to get things still done. A few months ago, if we would have thought of a world where we all would be working from home all the time, this was completely unbelievable, but now it's the new reality, and a lot of people have accepted it, and it seems like this trend will continue as we move into the new future as well.

04:37 PG: So that's very interesting because in moments of crisis, extraordinary moments bring about extraordinary actions and reactions and ways of figuring out ways of adapting so that we can be operational. What do you think are those things that we will not go back to? That anyway, there's a saying of, "We'll go back to a new normal." This new normal, what kind of things do you think we're going to keep from the past that we're still going to cherish, of course, from the past, and what are those things that you believe are really not... We're not going to replicate from the past that are really going to be a new way of working or even a new way of looking at work? 

05:30 MA: Personally, I feel the importance of health and safety, and what health and safety means in times of such crisis has been... Has just come out in reality for all of us. This importance and compliance to it, compliance to all the health and safety measures is probably then the thing which we will see a lot more of. The consciousness of...

06:02 MA: Staying home and how many times have we seen this where people with flu still come to work? I doubt if that would again happen in the months and years that we move forward. I think people will be very cautious of their own health, but also how little things that they do might affect others, so it's a two-way thing. But again, a lot of consciousness around what it means for employee health and safety, your own personal health and safety, I think that part will become a little bit more prominent in our workplaces, but also what it means for us when we are visiting people even personally. I also don't see that we would be going back to the same office setup, whether it is closed offices or open office spaces, it's very, very likely that there will be an adoption or acceptance for remote working, allowing people the flexibility to get work done no matter where they're based and how the setup would look like.

07:12 MA: A lot of companies have very quickly adapted the policies to make that happen for the crisis, and it's very difficult to see that we will reverse it 100%. There will be some degree of reversal to start seeing social interactions because that's been a big missing element in the current setup, we need that. But on the other hand, it would be very important for us to also see that we're not going back to the same setup and we are using the new learning that we've had of work can happen remote as well. I also personally feel that business travels in some of the industries which was used for every meeting, quite a lot of meetings that were happening I would doubt if business travel will go back to the same limits as it was before. So it's very much likely that we will trail back and go choose where we travel and the reasons why, where travel will be critical, and I do feel that there will be quite a few filters on this.

08:19 PG: Which of course triggers so many other questions in my head, but perhaps we will not cover it here, but a little bit the long term consequences from an economic perspective on some industries or some areas that it could be hospitality, airlines, and even office rental space, and talking with some colleagues, they really are reconsidering some of their lease agreements regarding the office rents, etcetera. So it's still unknown what's gonna happen and how these industries may be shaped, that would be my first consideration. And also going back to your initial point on the essential work, workers, I felt exactly the same way, which how paradoxical it is or how humbling I would rather say it is to realize what is really, really essential besides toilet paper.

00:01 Sunita Malhotra: Absolutely assume everyone is a network, and you have one.

00:06 Susan Kaye: I do have a ton of people who I have something in common with. We all do.

00:12 Paola Granati: Welcome once again to this episode of The World of Work Podcast, The WoW. I'm Paola Granati and today we will talk about networking. And networking is not only important if you're looking for a job, it's just an important skill to be able to master or at least feel comfortable with. And for this session, I'm joined by a panel, by two guest speakers, Susan Kaye and Sunita Malhotra. Now, you've already met Susan in the second episode of The WoW when we were talking about managing transitions. She has this unique combination of HR professional experience and outplacement experience in career counseling. And the second panelist is Sunita, Sunita Malhotra, who is the owner and managing director of People Insights.

01:03 PG: She consults globally in strategic human resources, is an executive coach, and in addition is also a professor in several different universities. She has lived and worked in four countries, India, USA, Switzerland, Belgium. Has worked in large global organizations across five different industries and has extensive experience in sales marketing, HR, and of course, entrepreneurship. A fascinating panel and just the right panel to talk about the art of networking with a sense of community in mind. So let's tune into the conversation.

01:43 SK: The starting point for me has always been to remind people that even if they think they don't have a network, they do. Everyone has a network and that's the first starting point, is to get people to understand that networking is not this incredibly grand thing that only top corporate leaders can do. Networking is something we do all the time in our whole life. We spend our time asking friends and people we know where they would suggest we go and eat. We listen to other recommendations when we look for a doctor. We very rarely just pick up the internet and go and take the first name we find. We work...

02:24 SK: For everything we do in life, we work on recommendations, and so we all do have a network. The problem is most people don't realize it. And so the starting point for me is always, sit down and just take a deep breath and first of all accept and say to yourself, "You do have a network." Because you do. Everyone does. And it starts with people who are close to you, and it starts with your family, your friends... Just already that very, very close network is huge. And then you start expanding, and I like to draw it out as if there are a whole lot of rooms in a house, and in each room there's a group of people.

03:04 SK: There's one room that holds the family, there's one room that holds your friends, there's one room that holds the people you went to school with. The people you worked with. The people that you do sports with. Your neighbors. The people who work in the stores you go and shop in. The suppliers who you've bought things from, etcetera. And all these different places and rooms full of people coming from different walks of life, and that's the starting point to say, "Already how many people do I know?" Most people... A lot of people will say, "Oh. I don't really know anyone." But then you start going through these little rooms... In fact, everyone knows at least 300 to 500 people. I don't spend necessarily a huge amount of time with them. I do have a ton of people who I have something in common with. We all do.

03:57 PG: You're taking it already from the socialization point of view. You're already taking it, let's say, from a community point of view, to start from there.

04:07 SK: Because... Yeah.

04:08 PG: Start from your inner circle of the people who you already know, you're interacting with. It can start from family, from friends, community, teachers, schools...

04:17 SK: Yeah. Because networking is scary to most people and so the best way to start networking and start practicing on talking to other people about yourself and about what you want and about what you're looking for and about how they could maybe help you. It's a lot easier to start with people who are close to you, who are gonna be forgiving if you mess up in how you're doing it, because at first it's uncomfortable. But the giving side for me of networking is you make other people feel good. Put it the other way around. What you're doing for them is giving them an opportunity to feel way better.

04:51 PG: Fantastic. Thank you. Thank you for that perspective. Sunita, what would you add to that? What are your insights on this topic? 

05:00 SM: I'm gonna add to a couple of things that Susan said, but before I do that, I just wanna take a step back because we need to define what's the principal behind networking, because the word is used so often, and in some cultures it even has a negative connotation because... First, it's to demystify that it's not a bad thing. And for me, if I define the principle of networking in one line, it would be finding people who can introduce you to other people to build long-term relationships. It's not about finding a job, or it's not about getting, just getting. And that's, to link to what you said, Paola, that's a bit the getting and the giving. That has to be balanced for networking to be really good.

05:40 SM: Now having said that, I'd love to add two points to what Susan said, and add another one that I was reflecting on. The first is, absolutely, assume everyone is a network and you have one. And I can say that for myself, because when I opened my own company after many, many years of corporate life, I sat there and I went, "Oh my God, I haven't been networking. Who is gonna be my client?" And exactly what Susan said, when I started to do that, one after the other, I realized a supplier became a client, a previous employee became a client, and it just went on. Assume everyone is a network. And I love the analogy that Susan said about rooms. So go and just sit down and make a list on a blank sheet of paper. The other thing I would add is, it is about give and take.

06:28 SM: And it is lovely when you go to people and you start with, "I'd love your advice." Because there are very, very few people who don't like to give advice or like to help. And the moment you do that, to Susan's point, they get something, because they gave advice and you get something because you got something from it. So it's a win-win. And the only other piece I would add, before I turn it over to you again, Paola on this one, is, many, many times, what I found people don't do is they go into networking as if it's socializing. And for me, there's a difference, because socializing is a bit of chit-chat, if I may use the slang, but networking, you still do need to have a clear objective in mind. You need to know where you wanna go, why you're building this network, and it could just be to build a life-long friend and that's ok, because you know, many of my networks today, I have long-term friendships and mentors from there. Have a clear objective in mind. Again, assume everyone's a network, give advice and at the same time have a clear objective when you get there.

07:30 PG: I think that’s very important, framing ...

00:11 Paola Granati: Well, for those of you like me, who thought you only had a human identity, think again, you actually also have a digital one, and if you don't, you better make sure you do especially if you're looking for a job. So today, we will be talking with Irina Bouras about social media, digital media, digital etiquette, and no wonder I decided to call this episode, let's get digital, but before we do, let's get to know Irina a little bit better. She's a business partner with over seven years of experience, started her career in the life science industry. She's currently working for a company called Skills Alliance, they're based in several parts of the world, but she is operating out of the Swiss office and they specialize in providing recruitment services mostly to companies in the field of medical technology and biotechnology. And by the way, to all of you out there working in the healthcare industry, in the medical field, in the pharma, in the life sciences, in the essential work area, a big, big, big thank you for everything you've done and everything you continue to do. Thank you.

01:33 PG: So now I think we're ready to kick this off and get digital.

01:37 PG: I'm particularly happy to have you Irina for several reasons, and I think also the audience and the listeners will be very happy because you bring as well the recruiters perspective, right? You being a recruiter, social media, I would imagine is the bread and butter to a great extent of what you do to be able to source the right candidates, at least in the initial stages. And the second reason, I'm particularly happy to have you is, for our listeners, is Irina is a millennial, so the millennials are definitely more talented, let's put it this way, in the current technology and how to use it at best, also because it's just part of the daily life in a way, so perhaps there's a more fluid definition between professional and personal social media is just a natural new language, perhaps. Irina, I'd be curious to, of course, know what is it that inspires you to be part of this podcast, and in this episode in particular.

02:52 IB: Thank you very much for the warm introduction Paola, I really like it, and you are completely true, 100%. This is definitely something that I spend a lot of time on, and social media is one of the tools that for us recruiters is very important at the moment, not to mention the fact that the millennial age group, let's say, just to give you a bit of a stat. The majority in this age group actually found their first employment through social media. I would say around 84%, according to studies, and I'm not saying it, study say it, that is definitely the preferred way of engaging with a new employer because there's more transparency and things become a little bit more personal from the very first introduction on social media.

03:43 PG: It's also from a candidate's perspective, let's put it this way, that it just becomes more personal because the company is also more visible, the leaders working in that company, the hiring manager is also more visible because he/she is probably active on social media, to your point, you can put a face and a more human look and feel to that process.

04:03 IB: It's a two-way street, basically. It's a platform also for the employer and the job seeker, because the employer can market themselves, can bring up their story, their values, make it more visible and give people a sense of who they are, so they already know what the company is all about before they even have an initial conversation, a virtual coffee or an interview. And from the job seeker side, obviously, they will be interested, who are they going to communicate to? What is it that this company is all about? Who is it that they're going to report in to? What is the team like? And it's very easy to search that information up on social media, much easier than it was in traditional ways, and as I mentioned, the majority of job seekers are definitely engaged in social media these days, particularly millennials.

04:58 PG: Great, but you know what, the other generations gotta catch up too, I mean, like my generation.

05:00 IB: I will teach you some tips and tricks.

05:04 PG: Exactly, so I appreciate that because hopefully our audience is broad enough and we'll have broad demographics, which to your point, it's important, right? To make sure that we will also speak to the right audience, but for the millennials who already know, but also for the previous generation who may learn, I do think this is gonna be a valuable conversation, 'cause there's always something to learn. So, Irina, one of my first questions is, we understand the importance of having, more and more of a personal brand and, as a candidate, now I talk about a candidate position and being clear, what you stand for, what’s your value proposition and for the younger, let's say the ones who are starting in the job market, it may be a little bit more complicated to start building a brand. It also depends on your experience and your expertise, etcetera, but that said, it's important to have a sense of, what do you stand for? So let's assume we've done all of that, we've done our value proposition, we know what we want, we know what our passions are, we've laid out a little bit the... We've mapped out the market. Then we need to be out there and we need to be visible, as I was saying before. So what, before we go into the tools, right, what is your view, what's your definition of a well-thought-through social media strategy? 

06:31 IB: I'm glad you asked this, Paola, and we definitely touched on the subject of the wide spread of social media nowadays. I do have to say that almost half of the world's population is engaged with at least one social media account as we speak, so yes, it is part of our day-to-day schedules and it is part of our identity somehow, digital identity. So on...

07:00 PG: Digital identity, I like that. Actually, I'm not sure if I like it, but it is what it is, a digital identity. Let's add one more identity.

07:12 IB: Yeah, it is a digital identity, and the way that you are leveraging that and strategizing around it is definitely important in your job search as well. So to define, to come back to your question, and define a strong strategy for digital pursuit, let's say for a job, especially in this job market where a lot of... There are a lot of job seekers, particularly because of the COVID-19 situation that we've just been through and was unexpected, so the majority of people that were not necessarily in a position where they were looking for a job before are now in a completely different game. So starting off from having a profile, basically, on one of those accounts, I obviously relate to LinkedIn the most because part of my day-to-day activity is related to LinkedIn. It's a professional platform where the majority of my candidates come from, actually, and what I'm looking for is particularly for them to have an updated profile, to have that digital identity strategized somehow so I can see that they're including the fact that they're open to new opportunities, they're communicating it to me in a way in which I can see it on this platform without even speaking. So I already know, oka...

00:03 Karin W: What's uniquely yours? 

00:05 Paola G: Isn't this a wonderful way to start this episode of the World of Work podcast or the WOW, as we continue to explore, what are some tips; what's some advice we can provide for those who may be looking for a job at the moment. In the previous episode, it was all about how to manage transitions and how important that is. And now we go a little bit more into the depth and into the detail on what to do, what are the can do's, you should do's, and absolutely the must-do's when you're ready to face the job market once again. And figuring out what's uniquely yours sounds like a really really great place to start and to consider.

00:45 Paola G: But before we do that, a quick introduction regarding the guest speaker of today's episode. So I'm joined by Karen Wierinck, she's a global HR business leader in the pharma and the biotech industry. She has lived and worked in the USA and various locations across Europe. And in the course of her almost 30 years career, she has led, lived through, and experienced herself downsizings and reorganizations numerous numerous times. And I've asked Karen before actually kicking it off, why is it that she wanted to take part of this podcast.

01:21 Karin W: Because I have seen a lot of this. I have lived it myself, I've experienced it, either because I was being relocated or I lost my job. I've led consultations, and I think over the years, I may have had hundreds of conversations with people in this particular context. So, that's why I think there's probably some lessons that I would love to share with the audience.

01:56 Paola G: I thank you for your time and for your contribution, which I'm sure many people will value. Because, the purpose is actually to make these conversations as real as possible as well, and as authentic as genuine and as practical, so that people can walk away with some gems and some inspirations of particularly what they can do in these moments if their job has been impacted and there's no one magic solution or one magic bullet. But what would you say to those individuals like right now, who have lost their job, are struggling and don't even know where to start, what would you tell them? What would you recommend? 

02:48 Karin W: Maybe a little bit of a step back; what I will bring to the table will be a combination of these experiences, and having lived them as HR, as a manager, and I'll weave all of that into hopefully what are some pragmatic suggestions. What I would say is, it's important that you take stock, what is it that you bring to the table? What are the achievements that you have made over the course of a period of time? What's the impact, and can you quantify that? 

03:28 Karin W: How can you express that? It's important that you start thinking about what your unique experiences are, your unique skills, where is it that you're at your best, what might be the circumstances for that? What is it that you've learned? What are the lessons you have accumulated? What is it that you're proud of, and what is it that you want to do next? And this one maybe might be hard, because if you're finding yourself on the crossroads, then it might be not entirely clear to you what it is that you want to do next.

04:08 Karin W: I've done some coaching certification, and a tool that I find useful is that you can say yes or no to certain things. So you can brainstorm a little bit with yourself and say, "What would I want you say yes to in terms of tasks? What would be some of the things that I would say no to? What about the culture, the manager, the context? So that you start building what that next horizon looks like a little bit from the ground up. And if it's very clear to you what it is that you want to do, then, you're maybe already a step further ahead in the process, right? 

04:54 Paola G: Would you see this as well an opportunity to... Like you were saying before, like to step back and really reflect as well of course on your past, what you've done, what you've achieved, what your passions are, and also, like you were saying, you're looking in the future, determining what is the yes and what's the no? What are those things that, exactly because of the past, you say, "Now I'm... I... Even if it may be a difficult situation economically... " 'cause that's another important component, right? If your job has been impacted then that has an impact on your finances, of course, I think that does require perhaps a different reflection and conversation. But it does sound like it's a thoughtful process, it's not an immediate type of answer.

05:41 Karin W: Yeah. Well, I'm like... People are different, and, some need more, some need less time. Depending upon how you are feeling as a result of the process, where are you in it? And, does it come as a relief, or does it come as a shock, or, is it something that you're grieving over? The answers might be different, right? I do think that how much time you need will be dependent upon all of that. But, I do think that, or I very strongly believe and suggest that it's better to go with what is right for you, than to go with the first that presents itself. I think there's a very big difference there.

06:37 Karin W: Is it what you want? Is it the company that you want? Is it the context that you want? The industry… that would be... Yeah, because if you're in your sweet spot, whether it's role, whether it's context, it will be so much easier for you on the job, as well, right? And it will be so much more WOW, with so much joy.

07:02 Paola G: Right, that's what it's about exactly, exactly. And how would you say people can find that sweet spot? 

07:11 Karin W: I had a manager at Pfizer and I was struggling at Pfizer because I had come from a very different... Culturally, very different organization. His name is Phil Sleeman and if Phil would listen to this, he may recognize this story. Phil had an incredible knack of helping someone find both what they're good at and what helped them, or what would make them trip up or what their own personal hurdles were. One of the things that Phil talked about is, what's uniquely yours? And I always... I love this expression. What's uniquely yours? And try to find what that is. What's your value proposition? In HR, I will sometimes ask when people come and interview, "Why should I hire you as opposed to Liz or John who are maybe also very qualified? What is it that sets you apart?" So, I think to reflect on that, to ask people that know you well, or that have insight, but also to really think about when are you in flow? When are you at your best? And to think not only about the what of that... What is it that you do? But the context, the circumstance... I think that that could be helpful.

09:02 Paola G: Sounds like we owe him some copyrights on that expression. [chuckle] What's uniquely yours, wasn’t it? And oh, we could have him as well as a guest one day in these WOW moments. And I completely agree with you by the way. When we're on the other side, recruiting or interviewing candidates for roles, of course, we do look into the qualifications, we do look into the experience, we look at all of that, but we also do look at differentiation, what is it about John versus Mary versus Steve versus Laura that really makes them unique in their own way a...

00:02 Susan Kaye: If you don't let it heal, you won't get better.

00:08 Paola Granati: Welcome to this episode of the World of Work podcast, the WoW. I'm Paola Granati, and today we will talk about how to best manage transitions together with Susan Kaye. And as you just heard her say, healing is an important part of that process. It's an important part in order to be able to move on to something new. Before we kick this off, a brief introduction of today's speaker.

00:32 PG: Susan Kaye is a senior HR professional with extensive experience in all areas of the HR function, having worked both in a large Fortune 500 corporation, as well as a boutique, outplacement firm, she really has this unique combination of very strong career coaching and counseling skills together with an in-depth understanding of the strategic value of people in organizations as well as of HR.

01:00 PG: A dual British-Swiss national, she has lived and worked in the UK, Mexico, Switzerland and the US, and has traveled the world for both business and pleasure. I started this conversation by asking Susan to help us better understand what we typically mean by transitions in the world of work.

01:19 SK: First of all, transition means we're going from one state to another, so we're going through a change process, and, that change generally is... If we're talking in the employment area, is from an old job to a new job. Now that can be a transition and a change that's taking place voluntarily; it can be a choice, a personal choice, it can be an internal change within a company, and then you're transitioning from one particular situation in one company to another situation in that same company.

01:57 SK: It can be a transition from one company to another, again, as a choice, but very often when we're using the terminology in the career counseling arena, we're most often talking of transitions that are taking place in situations where employers have made the decision for a whole variety of reasons that that person's job is no longer necessary, and that that person needs to leave the organization. And then we talk about a career transition process. And it's in that case, a transition process that has a starting point which is not voluntary or at least, not decided generally by the individual it concerns. So it's a change from one state to another, but that's basically provoked by a decision that the individual it concerns doesn't control.

02:56 PG: Yeah, even if individuals may know that something's coming, it always does come as a...

03:02 SK: As a shock. And I've... Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And by... When... When it's not a personal decision, I.e., the individual saying, "Well, I want to move into another job, into another role, I am taking this decision," when that decision is taken by someone else, fundamentally, the individual's environment is rocked and completely turned upside down. And even in situations, one you've just mentioned, people could be assumed to have expected that it was going to happen, because maybe the economy is down, maybe the firm is not doing well, maybe their boss doesn't like them; there are 15,000 reasons why this could happen, it doesn't stop the fact that it is always a shock.

03:50 SK: Even when people expect it, that shock will have different impacts, depending on whether it's actually a relief, because there are situations when the individual comes out of it, saying, "Finally, it's done, now I know where I am, even if I don't really know where I'm going but I know what the situation is." But there are lots of situations where it's not a relief. It's a shock, it's... It's... It's a total catastrophe, their world is falling down around them and they need to be able... The individual needs to be able to manage that.

04:30 SK: And the reality is, that the first most frequent reaction is going to be shock, which can put people in a total non-reaction mode, where they look as if they haven't really heard what you've said to them, and then that is going to... They're going to move from there, and they're gonna move in different ways, depending on their personality and depending on their history and what they've already lived through. Some people are going to move very quickly into an angry zone, some others are going to try and shrug it off and move into a zone where they say, "Oh, I'm fine." Others are going to be in total denial, they're going to be trying to negotiate their way back in. So, there are... And all of these different reactions can be simultaneous, they're practically simultaneous for some people, everything's happening at the same time.

05:28 SK: So that's why it is such a complicated time to deal with because... Because people are reacting and don't feel in control anymore. And so, the key message that needs to be able to go through, to people in that stage is first of all, it's okay to be angry, it's okay to be upset. It's... It's okay to want to vent about a decision that one wasn't consulted about, and that one just fundamentally disagrees with. It's okay to have that, but it's not okay to spend the next six months complaining about what happened and adopting the approach of a victim that has no control. In the moment, when you're informed, you have no power and you couldn't be in control, but as time passes, you will move on if you can accept that it's not the situation that was forced upon you that dictates how you should react to it. You are still your own person, and you have tools and means, and abilities and skills, and competencies that you can... Your resources you can use to stand back up on your two feet. But you need to accept it's going to take a little bit of time.

07:07 PG: And it's going to take time, but not too much time. That's also what you were saying. It's like, there's a moment of grief. Let's put it this way. There's a moment where, allow yourself that moment of anger or frustration or... Before you get to the acceptance. But you need to make sure that you move on to a next state that allows you to look at it with a resourceful perspective, because, ultimately, I think people tend to underestimate the fact that this negativity, because these are emotions, anger or whether it's anger, whether it's frustration, whether... I would also imagine, yes, grief are emotions that are part of who we are as humans, of course. They tend to drag us down. They're not necessarily boosters of forward-thinking and even of looking into, "Oh, okay. What other options can I have?"

08:14 SK: Yes, absolutely. But if I can come back to the notion of time, this will... When people ask me, "How long is it going to take for me to feel better about all this?" There is no one answer. Because everyone is unique and people are going to react differently. But there's a comparison that's a useful comparison. When you are told from one day to the next, that your job is over, that your career is over in that company and that you're gonna have to get back on the market, and maybe you haven't done that in 20, 30 years, or maybe you've never done it, then it's extremely scary. What you're in fact, facing is a similar situation to what you face when you're riding on your bicycle and you slide off the road and you break your leg. You break your leg, it hurts, you go to a doctor, you get potentially an operation or a cast or whatever it is you need.