00:00 - Intro
00:52 - Welcome and weekly catch-up
01:11 - Vern's deep dive into the AI rabbit hole
02:39 - Rich’s quit(er) work week, new threads, and dentists
04:15 - Richard buys a domain and we started the pod proper
06:09 - Tool idea #1: Using an LLM to evaluate user stories and acceptance criteria automatically
07:35 - Is analysing a story "testing" or "quality"? The ISTQB static analysis debate
10:27 - Vernon's diabetes analogy: AI is forcing us to finally do what we always said we should
12:19 - Better stories = better testing: how quality work amplifies everything downstream
13:11 - Tool idea #2: "If we made this change, what areas of the system would be impacted?"
14:23 - Distilling years of system knowledge into 5–10 questions an agent could ask
18:37 - Tool idea #3: The PR Analyser — summarising code changes through a testing and quality lens
21:45 - Vernon's "1 unit of effort, 5 units of testing" — the quality multiplier effect
23:29 - Comparing story analysis to actual implementation: where did understanding diverge?
24:43 - Tool idea #4: Dynamic test selection — cherry-picking the right tests to run first
27:05 - Tool idea #5: An agent that analyses failed builds and attempts to fix them
27:28 - Why Richard's first attempt always "fixed" the test instead of the code (and what was missing)
29:21 - Dan's AI agents: one thinking partner, one employee monitoring production
32:42 - The documentation goldmine: why AI-generated RCA notes might matter more than the fix
33:39 - Tool idea #6: A holistic quality dashboard pulling insights across stories, code, tests, and process
36:43 - John Cutler on context: it's not data you pass around — it's formed through interaction
40:43 - More options than ever: whether it's testing, quality, or static analysis — you can do it differently now
41:56 - The real skill: spotting the opportunity to make yourself more effective
42:30 - Ge Hill's Lump of Code Fallacy and why task analysis matters
43:34 - Why Richard got into automation: efficiency, not because he was told to
45:03 - Vernon's big question: in a world where agents can do everything, what's your performance review about?
46:52 - Context, craft, and product knowledge can't be delegated to tools yet
48:29 - Call to action: What are you building? What tools couldn't you build before that you can now?
49:29 - Upcoming: Test Automation Days and PeerCon Live in Nottingham

Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod:

• 04:15 - Automation in Quality
  • Richard bought the automationinquality.com domain! The concept explored throughout this episode.
• 05:28 - Kalpesh Sodha aka Kalps
  • Shout out to Richard's colleague who played devil's advocate on the "is it testing or quality?" question
• 07:31 - Static analysis
• 29:44 - Dan "The Agile Guy" Elliott
  • His post about how he uses AI agents as a "thinking partner" and an "employee" with different missions and capabilities
  • Dan’s website
  • Dan's LinkedIn
• 36:52 - John Cutler
  • John Cutler's piece on how context isn't just data you move around — it's formed through interaction between people
  • John's newsletter
  • John's LinkedIn
• 42:37 - Rob Sabourin
  • My quick Perplexity search for Rob's public material on Task Analysis
  • Rob's Linkedin
• 42:45 - Michael “GeePaw” Hill
  • His Lump of Code Fallacy. The idea that coding isn't just one activity — there are three flavours of work that occur when you code
  • Michael’s website
  • Michaels Mastadon
• 49:35 - Test Automation Days
  • Richard will be keynoting at Test Automation Days
  • Make sure you say hi if you’re there
• 50:10 - PeersCon
  • Vernon and Richard will be recording a live episode at PeersCon!
  • If you're there, come say hi and grab a mic 🎙️

00:00 - Intro

01:47 - Welcome (Richard is not at home 👀)

02:07 - Ramadan, cooking without tasting, and plastic teeth 🦷

04:01 - Today's topic: revisiting the AiT principles ahead of a keynote

04:58 - What is Automation in Testing (AiT)?

06:49 - Principle 1: Supporting Testing over Replicating Testing

07:01 - Vernon's take: testing is a performance, not a click sequence

08:22 - What the industry promised vs what automation actually does

08:49 - The serendipity you lose when a human isn't testing

09:59 - Agentic testing: observing more, but still not replicating humans

10:56 - The danger of anthropomorphising AI output

12:10 - LLMs always give an answer — and that's the problem

13:03 - Principle 2: Testability over Automatability

13:14 - Vernon's take: narrow vs broad — operate, control, observe

14:38 - Making apps automatable for the robots but not the humans

15:37 - The shiniest framework in a broken testing context

16:40 - If it's testable, it's probably automatable — but not vice versa

16:55 - Automation strategy vs testing strategy: when they compete, everyone loses

17:46 - The problem has always been testing, not automation

19:57 - Principle 3: Testing Expertise over Coding Expertise

20:18 - Vernon's take: testing expertise lets you leverage the tools

21:47 - The spoonfed tests problem: great at automating, lost without guidance

22:36 - The "code school" era: everyone told to learn to code

22:51 - Coding agents have changed the maths on this

26:01 - The new nuance: test design and framework knowledge over writing the code

28:44 - Evaluating code is a testing problem — and LLMs can help you do it

30:43 - Are agents as good as a junior developer?

31:42 - Outcome Engineering (O16G) and the race to write the AI principles

32:13 - Simon Wardley: we're in the wild west again

33:22 - Principle 4: Problems over Tools

33:29 - Vernon's take: the hammer and the nail

34:07 - Don't let your problems be shaped by the framework you have

34:36 - New automation opportunities beyond testing: PRs, logs, story review

35:30 - Principle 5: Risk over Coverage

36:12 - Vernon's take: 100% coverage ≠ 100% risk coverage

38:00 - The one test case, one automated test fallacy

39:04 - Where in the system is the risk? Do you even know your layers?

39:49 - Probabilistic vs non-deterministic: refining the language around AI

40:53 - Coverage as intentional vs coverage as a number someone picked once

43:15 - Principle 6: Observability over Understanding

43:24 - Vernon's take: just-in-time understanding vs reading everything upfront

44:12 - What the principle was actually about: making automation results observable

47:00 - Does this principle belong in testing, or has it grown into quality?

49:00 - So... what's missing?

50:00 - The four pillars: Strategy, Creation, Usage, and Education

57:05 - Automation in Quality: the bigger opportunity

01:01:00 - Wrap up + Vern's Lead Dev panel

Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod:

• 04:00 - Automation in Testing (AiT)
  • The principles live at automationintesting.com
  • AiT was co-created by Richard Bradshaw and Mark Winteringham
• 04:00 - Test Automation Days
• The conference where Richard is giving his keynote — testautomationdays.com
• 24:48 - James Thomas
• The "kid in a candy shop" himself — James's blog and LinkedIn
• 31:42 - Outcome Engineering (016G)
• The article Richard shared before recording — worth tracking down if you're interested in where agentic development practices are heading
• 32:13 - Simon Wardley
• If you're not following Simon Wardley, please follow Simon Wardley! His work on Wardley Maps and situational awareness in strategy is essential reading
• Simon's LinkedIn
• 43:30 - Abby Bangser
• Vern's go-to person for all things observability. Abby's LinkedIn
• 46:04 - Noah Susman
• As it turns out, the quote Vern's referencing: advanced monitoring as "indistinguishable from testing" was not by Noah! It was Ed Keyes at GTAC 2007.
• Noah's blog and LinkedIn
• 59:30 - Angie Jones
• Vern's been reading Angie's work on testing AI-enabled applications here and here.
• Angie's website and LinkedIn
• 01:01:30 - The Lead Dev panel Vernon will be part of
• "How to Measure the Business Impact of AI" — happening 25th February, free to sign up
• 01:02:00 - Richard's Selenium Conf talk
  • "Redefining Test Automation" — the talk that the Test Automation Days keynote is shaping up to be a spiritual successor to. 

Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod:

• 05:19 - The Malazan Book of the Fallen by Steven Erikson
• 14:59 - The $1k Challenge by Ali Abdaal Vernon took part in last year
• 17:23 - The video from Daniel Pink on how to have a successful year
  • Here's where Daniel talks about having a Challenger Network (but the whole video is 😙🤌🏾)
• 18:46 - Toby Sinclair
  • Toby's website
  • Toby's LinkedIn
• 19:24 - Keith Klain
  • Keith's blog
  • Keith's podcast
  • Keith's LinkedIn
• 19:25 - Agile Testing Days conference
• 35:45 - What is Model Drift?
• 41:06 - Glue work
  • Tanya's Glue Work presentation which you can read or watch
  • Vernon's talk about how glue work impacts Quality Engineers, Testers, etc.
• 48:06 - Gary "GaryVee" Vaynerchuk
  • Gary's website
  • Gary's YouTube
    
    

00:00 - Intro

00:54 - Greetings & where have we been?

01:32 - The holidays

02:34 - Rest & mood

04:00 - Routines for success

05:59 - Push-up challenge!

08:35 - Dopamine detox

10:28 - THE EPISODE BEGINS!

10:29 - What are our personal 2026 themes (rather than resolutions)?

10:59 - Rich's 2026 themes

13:10 - Vern's themes

17:58 - Friendship, loneliness, and being the initiator

21:28 - Rich has a two itches. One about writing...

21:56 - ...and another about hats

25:23 - Vern's leadership focus and testing foundations

31:06 - AI work: data mindset, agents, and the vibe coding divide

40:11 - Rant about AI testing being stuck in the past

46:37 - Do "cool" shit and "talk" about it. How to stand out from AI Slop

50:10 - Our podcast themes for 2026

00:00 - Intro

00:48 - Welcome and "Hey" (may contain traces of ⚽️)

04:45 - Olly's first question: Does shift left lend itself more to waterfall (than other methodologies)?

14:41 - Olly's second question: Does this limit how much agile can be used? Is there potentially a new methodology that can emerge from this?

22:31 - Olly's third question (remixed by Rich a little): "...is it more now a case of making people aware that they can, should be considering things ahead of development?"

34:24 - Olly's fourth question: How far can you shift-left before it becomes overstepping?

51:53 - Olly's... which question is this now?! Next question! That works!: Where does the QA role end?

Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod:

• 04:26 - Olly Fairhall
  • Olly's LinkedIn
  • Here's a link to what Olly sent us
• 04:45 - Waterfall (in software development)
  • Wikipedia article about the history of the term 
  • This article goes into a little more detail about the different phases and characteristics of the model 
• 07:29 - Dan Ashby's (yes DAN'S!) famous diagram is part of his often cited "Continuous Testing" post
• 07:50 - For folks who don't understand that reference, it's... taken (🥁) scene from the movie Taken
• 08:10 - Rich's Whiteboard used to get a lot more love😞 
• 22:31 - Olly's questions and thoughts that are guiding our conversation. Thanks Olly!
• 44:12 - The book "Who Not How" by Dan Sullivan and Dr. Benjamin Hardy
• 46:33 - Elisabeth Hendrickson
  • Get Elisabeth's excellent book Explore It!
  • Elisabeth's LinkedIn
• 46:49 - Alan Page
  • Alan's newsletter
  • Alan and Brent's podcast
  • Alan's LinkedIn
• 51:53 - Kelsey Hightower
  • Kelsey did a Q&A at Cloud Native PDX and you can listen to the question and answer I was trying to describe here.
  • I urge you to listen to the whole thing. Kelsey is an excellent orator, storyteller, and all-around human ❤️
• 55:33 - Rob Sabourin
  • My quick Perplexity search for Rob's public material on Task Analysis
  • Rob's Linkedin
• 56:59 - Vernon's newsletter "Yeah But Does it Work?!"
  • The issue mentioned is called "What Is The Vaughn Tan Rule and How Does It Impact Testing?" and talks about where we might start with unbundling

Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod:

• 05:05 - Defect Detection Rate (DDR)
  • The rate at which bugs are detected per test case (automated or manual)
  • No. of defects found by test team / No. of Test Cases executed) *100
• 15:06 - David Evans' LinkedIn
• 24:57 - Janet Gregory
  • Janet's website
  • Janet's LinkedIn
• 26:01 - Defect Prevention Rate
  • Perplexity search results here
• 28:28 - Jerry Weinberg
  • Jerry's Wikipedia page (his books are highly recommended)
• 49:33 - Shift-Left: The concept of moving testing activities earlier in the software development lifecycyle.

Some resources explaining the Shift-Left concept (Perplexity link)

00:00 - Intro
01:11 - Welcome & "woke" testing 😳
03:15 - QA, QE, Testing… whatever we call it, how do we measure if we're doing a good job?
03:44 - Vernon’s first experience with testing metrics: more = better?
05:00 - Defect Detection Rate enters the chat
06:41 - Rich reverse engineers quality skills needed in the AI era
10:54 - How do we know if we’re doing any of this well?
12:40 - Trigger warning: the topic of coverage is incoming 😅
16:54 - Bugs in production
21:09 - Automation metrics: flakiness, pass rates, and execution time
24:29 - Can you measure something that didn’t happen? (Prevention metrics)
27:43 - Do DORA metrics actually measure prevention?
32:03 - Here comes Jerry!
33:50 - The one metric the business cares about...
36:23 - QA vs QE: whose “quality” are we "assuring"?
39:25 - What's the story behind the numbers?
48:29 - Rich brings in Shift Left Testing
50:14 - Metrics that reach beyond engineering
53:14 - Rich gets a new perspective on QE and the business
56:50 - Who does this work? Testers? QEs? Or someone else?

Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod:

• 08:50 - Dan Ashby
  • We're referring to Dan's's excellent post called "Continuous Testing" (featuring his famous diagram!)
• 17:13 - Jit Gosai
  • Jit's blog 
  • Jit's Quality Engineering Newsletter 
  • Jit's LinkedIn
• 19:24 - Quality Talks Podcast
  • Stu's Quality Talks podcast that he co-hosts with Chris Henderson
  • Stu's LinkedIn
  • Chris's Linkedin
• 19:55 - The Testing Peers podcast
• 22:00 - DORA Metrics: DORA metrics are a set of key performance indicators developed by Google’s DevOps Research and Assessment team to measure the effectiveness of software delivery and DevOps processes, focusing on both throughput and stability
• 26:13 - A link from Episode 10 where Vern discusses Glue Work (be sure to check out the show notes on that episode)
  • Quick overview of DORA metrics
• 34:43 - The Credibility Playbook
  • A video course by Vernon as he experiments with building digital products.
    • Check it out and let him know what you think of it! 😊
• 46:24 - Ali Abdaal
  • Ali's website
  • Ali's YouTube

00:00 - Intro

01:36 - Welcome

02:40 - Today's topic: What the hell is QA? QE? Testing? And is it all changing?

03:00 - Why is this bugging Rich?

05:11 - Fruit fly tangent 🍌🍊🍎🪰🐝🦋

06:27 - Rich's take on QA, QE, and Testing

08:31 - Vern's take on QA, QE, and Testing

11:15 - Is shift-left testing the same as QE?

13:05 - When the team tests early... is that QE then?!

16:18 - What's the big deal if we can’t define QE clearly?

19:27 - Why the Efficiency Era makes this even harder

22:55 - Trying to draw the Testing, QA, QE, Venn diagram

27:24 - Getting the QA, QE, Testing blend just right. What's the right mix?

29:52 - The kinds of work we take on as our careers grow

34:08 - What Testers get rewarded for

45:34 - How Ali Abdaal helped Vern think differently about quality

48:18 - Rich talks measurement

Description and Thumbnail made with AI to assess the quality, we had to!

00:00 - Intro
01:02 - Welcome and footy ⚽️
02:15 - Today's topic: The impact that AI may or may not have on Quality Engineering
03:22 - Rich's wild idea about AI and software quality
14:10 - Vern asks a clarifying question
22:45 - Communities of excellence… for machines?!
24:03 - Vern thinks there's an obvious risk that follows from this idea...
31:31 - Rich addresses the risk (Oracles, prompts, and tester superpowers)
36:13 – Reflection: the hidden skill AI forces on us
41:40 – Shifting in all directions (not just left)
43:04 - Feeding your past self into an AI: smart or scary?
45:53 – Operation 400 subscribers (and bot listeners)
47:13 – Tony Bruce calls us out on sloppy show notes and outro

Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod:

• 04:18 - Shift-Left: The concept of moving testing activities earlier in the software development lifecycyle.
  • Some resources explaining the Shift-Left concept (Perplexity link)
• 25:35 - Rob Bowley
  • Rob's LinkedIn
  • The post Vernon referred to...
  • ...a follow-up post not long after that one too!
• 26:40 - Alan Page
  • Alan and Brent's podcast
  • Alan's LinkedIn
• 34:43 - Saskia Coplans
  • Digital Interruption Saskia's cybersecurity consultancy
  • REXscan Saskia's automated mobile application vulnerability scanner
  • Saskia's LinkedIn (highly recommended follow)
• 41:49 - Paul Coles
  • Paul Coles published 3 of his 4 part series "The Subtle Art of Hearding Cats" over on Dev.To Recommended reading!
  • Paul's LinkedIn
• 43:09 - Maaret Pyhäjärvi
  • Maaret's website
  • Maaret's blog
  • Maaret's LinkedIn
    
    

Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod:

• 09:16 - The LinkedIn post talking about Replit messing with someone's production code 😳
  • And the link to the thread of person who went through it
  • The tool in question, Replit
• 13:01 - Rich's LinkedIn post with his tips
• 14:21 - GitHub Copilot
• 18:09 - VS Code
• 29:01 - Folks at different ends of the "AI Enthusiasm Spectrum"
  • On the enthusiastic end
    • Jason Arbon is on the positive side and is always creating something interesting like...
      • testers.ai
  • On the unenthusiastic end
    • Keith Klain has created a reading list to help get us up to speed...
      • Keith's reading AI reading list
      • You can see his full resources list here
    • Maaike Brinkhof has a bunch of thought-provoking posts on the topic...
      • ...like this one
      • and this one
• 34:44 - Want to know what "conflabulation" means? Listen to Martin explain it on the Ghost in th code podcast (that's not a typo!)
• 37:24 - What is Context Engineering? Perplexity has answers!
• 46:38 - The legendary Lt. Geordi La Forge from Star Trek: The Next Generation.
• 51:48 - After recording, the very cool Paul Coles published his article The Subtle Art of Herding Cats: Why AI Agents Ignore Your Rules (Part 1 of 4, explaining the topic of Context Engineering. It’s brilliant!
• 59:04 - The promises of technology over the years...
• 60:50 - The always insightful Meredith Whittaker of Signal fame, where is the president and services on its board of directors, explains the privacy and security concerns with agentic technology.
  • 
    Watch the clip, then go back and watch the whole thing!

00:00 - Intro
01:17 - Welcome
01:30 - TANGENT BEGINS... All kinds of egregious waffling follows. Skip to the actual content at 08:34
01:31 - Rich VS Tree Stump
01:57 - What on earth did Rich need the pulley for?
02:26 - Vern's nerdy confession and pulley confusion
02:52 - Does Rich live next door to Tony Stark?!
03:22 - What to do when you need a steel RSJ
03:35 - We admit defeat. 03:36 - Welcome to Rich's Garden Adventures Podcast!
07:25 - What has Vern been up to?
08:34 - We attempt to segue into the episode at last!
08:35 - TANGENT ENDS...
08:51 - Rich’s POC: using agents to help build AI tools
09:45 - The Replit disaster: vibe coding meets deleted production data 11:12 - Sociopathic assistants and the case for AI gaslighting 11:55 - Vernon wants his team experimenting with AI tools
12:50 - Rich explains the context for his latest AI adventures
13:18 - Rich’s bench project and “putting the engineering hat on” 
15:22 - Setting up the stack and staying in control 
16:53 - A familiar story: things were going fine until they weren’t 
17:00 - Ask vs Edit vs Agent mode in Copilot explained 
19:06 - The innocent linting error that spiralled out of control 
21:16 - Stuck in a loop: “I didn’t know what it was doing, but I let it keep going” 
22:11 - The fateful click: “I’m going to reset the DB” 
23:10 - The aftermath: no data, no damage… but very nearly 
23:33 - Security wake-up call: agents are acting as you 
24:39 - You can’t fix what you don’t know it broke 
25:52 - Can you interrupt an agent mid-task? 
27:14 - When agents get “are you sure?” moments 
28:15 - Tea breaks as a dev strategy: outsourcing work to agents 
29:24 - Jason Aborn vs Keith & Maaike: where Rich sits on the AI enthusiasm spectrum 
30:41 - Tip1. The first of Rich’s 6 agent tips: commit after every interaction
32:12 - Why trusting the “keep all” button is risky 
34:01 - Writing your own commits vs letting the agent do it 
35:26 - When agents lose the plot: reset instead of fixing 
36:55 - “You’re insane now, GPT. I’m giving you a break.” 
37:54 - Tip 2: Make the task as small as possible 
39:59 - The middle ground between 'ask' and full agent delegation 
41:12 - Tip 3: Ask the agent to break the task down for you 
43:36 - The order matters: why you shouldn’t start with the form UI 
44:33 - Vernon compares it to shell command pipelines 
45:09 - It can now open browsers and run Playwright tests (!) 
46:23 - Star Trek and the rise of the engineer-agent hybrid 
47:57 - Tips 4–6: Test often, review the code, use other models 
49:39 - Pattern drift and the importance of prompt templates 
50:51 - Vernon’s nemesis: m dashes, emojis, and being ignored by GPT 
51:48 - Context engineering vs prompt engineering 
52:43 - When codebases get too big for agents to cope 
53:40 - Why agents sometimes act dumber than your IDE 
54:32 - The danger of outsourcing good practices to AI 
54:48 - Spoilers: Rich’s upcoming keynote at TestIt 
55:01 - Agents don’t ask why — they just keep going 
56:42 - Goals vs loops: when failure isn’t part of the plan 
58:32 - The question of efficiency: is training agents worth it? 
59:47 - Rich’s take: we’ll buy agents like we buy SaaS 
61:08...

Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod:

• 01:16 - Llandegfan Exploratory Workshop in Testing aka LLEWT
  • You can read about the latest edition from James (I haven’t written anything up yet - VR)
• 19:57 - The “I just want to write code” LinkedIn post
  • FAILURE! I couldn’t find the LinkedIn post I was referring to 😭
• 22:29 - Linda Van De Vooren (massive brain freeze - I couldn't remember Linda's last name properly! Sorry Linda 🤦🏾‍♂️)
• 25:04 - Cul-de-sac
  • This is a French term (that means "bottom of the bag") that we use in English to describe a dead-end street, i.e. a street that only has one entry/exit point.
  • We also use it in the context Vernon just did, to indicate a situation where we have no options.
• 31:45 - The Deep Dive tracks at Agile Testing Days look incredible! Get your tickets ASAP folks!
  • They also have an Online Pass available if you're unable to visit Berlin (although if you can, we recommend visiting in person!)
• 34:20 - Rich's Qt testing articles
  • Where Does AI Fit in the Future of Software Testing?
  • Applying the SACRED Model to Build Reliable Automated Tests
  • The Importance of Technical System Knowledge
  • 4 Essential Types of Automated API Testing
  • Exploring the Different Types of Automated UI Testing
  • The Manual Testing and Automated Testing Paradox
• 42:11 - PeersCon tickets are available now. If you're in the UK and can easily get to Nottingham, I highly recommend visiting!
  • Don't forget they also need VolunPeers (do you see what they did there?), before and during the event, so check that out too please 🙏🏾
• 43:55 - Heather Reid 
  • Heather's blog 
  • Heather's LinkedIn
• 46:15 - Liza, the awesome teammate in question
• 46:41 - European Testing Conference led by Maaret Pyhäjärvi
  • While the event has stopped, you can still take a peek at their website
    
    

00:00 - Intro
00:48 - Welcome ramble
05:25 - Rich's question: An Engineer colleague wants to be coached on Quality Engineering, what do I do?
08:24 - Vern goes into coaching mode (shock!)
09:35 - Vern goes into teaching mode (shock!)
10:04 - Where could we start?
12:25 - Risk enters the chat...
14:50 - Quality enters the chat...
15:48 - Help them speak up and become a QA (Question Asker)
17:30 - Two powerful questions to get them thinking about quality
19:15 - The dangers of acting like an order taker...
19:57 - ...or are they?
21:45 - Uno Reverse! Is it true that all Engineers "love" writing code?
23:18 - Order Takers vs Experts
24:30 - Another powerful question to ask
25:47 - Rich's clarification sparks an idea about hats
27:17 - Slalom Sponsorship Appeal
27:41 - How do you decide when you have learned enough on a given topic?
29:21 - Majors and minors
30:55 - Learning modalities
31:42 - Learning tools
35:00 - A "syllabus" or roadmap starts to emerge
36:50 - What can the Engineer do to help the QEs in their life?
43:29 - Send us your ideas please
45:54 - The 1-to-many approach
47:53 - The classic mistake to avoid in this situation
49:15 - The relationship between testing and quality
52:10 - Vernon's people will contact Slalom's people

00:00 - Intro

01:42 - The Ramble begins

07:39 - QUESTION (Thanks Thierry!): "How do you see a growth plan for testers in test automation as a personal development plan?"

10:12 - How has Vern helped Testers create an automation development plan?

13:14 - What does it mean to go from novice to advanced?

15:15 - Rich wants to know what test automation means before answering the question!

15:57 - The nuance (and trap!) of the word "tool"

17:35 - Rich has come up with a new term for old testing

19:21 - What about code? Which languages should you learn?

20:34 - Vern's answer to a Redditor asking a similar question

23:34 - Don't forget the reason why we're trying to learn all of these tools and languages

24:24 - Who makes the "best" "automation" testers?

25:45 - What does it look like when an SDET hasn't learned how to identify the right test?

26:34 - Ok if that's you and your team, how can you make it work?

28:33 - Lord of the Rings testing!

29:40 - How does Alan Richardson defeat "Testing Sauron"? (I'll stop the LotR references now I swears it 😇)

31:07 - Noah Sussman's excellent early ideas to solve this problem

32:42 - Generalist or Specialist, what is the core, foundational knowledge needed to call yourself an engineer?

34:18 - ...and what about AI? (only took half an hour!)

35:10 - Vern wants to get back to work asap and start creating growth plans... but for who?

38:20 - What two things are often missed in growth plans?

40:41 - Rich talks about the tangible difference between being a novice and advanced SDET/Automation Specialist/Toolsmith

41:39 - The cognitive load of your engineers

42:17 - Production code vs Automation code: Which is more important? Rich breaks it down.

44:27 - What are we optimising for?

47:45 - Do we have to choose between readability and efficiency though?

52:52 - Learning through pain

54:12 - Rich and Vern wonder what they should do next

54:32 - What makes this relevant in today's job market

55:22 - One last wild take about software development careers...

Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod:

• 03:23 - The Øredev conference in Malmö
  • Get your tickets here!
• 04:13 - The LLEWT peer testing workshop
  • Check out this summary from last years event by James Thomas
  • Read about the origins of this flavour of workshop
• 06:40 - Cynefin a sense-making framework devised by Dr Dave Snowden
  • Here's Dr Snowden explaining the framework
  • Enabling Constraints
  • The Paradox of Choice (which I didn't know was a book - readingList++)
• 07:39 - Here's the full question from Thierry as he asked it on LinkedIn
• 14:14 - "GUI Automation"
  • A term used to describe tools focused on driving browsers. Some examples of such tools would include Selenium, Cypress, Playwright, and Watir.
• 15:57 - I'll link to Rich's article once it's published 🙂
• 16:04 - Automation in Testing (AiT)
  • Automation in Testing references (via Perplexity)
• 16:18 - Some tools and frameworks Rich mentioned:
  • Selenium
  • Playwright
  • JUnit
• 18:50 - Rich's API Testing article on Qt QA blog
• 19:07 - Rich's article explaining the different kinds of GUI Automation
• 19:21 - What's a scripting language vs an object-oriented language?
  • According to Perplexity
  • Key takeaway: These are not mutually exclusive terms and label to two different aspects of programming languages
    • Scripting: how code is run
    • Object-orietned: how code is organised
• 19:36 - Programming languages
  • TypeScript
  • Java
  • C# (pronounced "See-Sharp")
  • JavaScript
• 19:52 - Mark Winteringham
  • Mark's website
  • Mark's GenAI book
  • Mark's LinkedIn
• 20:34 - The article called "Career Advice For A 35+ Year Old Manual Tester"
• 26:54 - Erik "I love orange" Davis
  • Erik's LinkedIn
• 27:42 - Rich's S.A.C.R.E.D. model
• 29:40 - Alan Richardson
  • Alan's website
  • Alan's Patreon community
  • Alan's LinkedIn
• 31:02 - Noah Sussman
  • Noah's stupendous blog post "How to teach yourself to be a technical tester: some thoughts."
  • Noah's LinkedIn
  • Highly recommend that you watch Noah's talks on anyOfTheThings
• 32:24 - Then the effervescent Michael Larsen actually went through the thing!
  • He documented his journey with it too.

• 06:10 - Olly Fairhall
  • Olly's LinkedIn
  • Olly's Bluesky
• 11:27 - Chris Armstrong
  • Chris's blog
  • Chris's podcast The Testing Peers (of PeersCon fame!)
  • Chris's YouTube
  • Chris's LinkedIn
• 19:52 - Anne-Marie Charrett
  • Anne-Marie's book (why are you still here? Go and buy it right now!)
  • Anne-Marie's blog
  • Anne-Marie's LinkedIn
• 28:21 - Angie Jones
  • Angie's website (including links to her public GitHub repos, blog, and allTheSocialMedia profiles - I told you she was prolific!)
• 28:33 - Gops
  • To prove my point, I cannot find this man's LinkedIn profile 🤦🏾‍♂️😂 (this is a dude who I've known for multiple decades btw!)
• 34:05 - I work at Phrase, I'm having a great time, and we're hiring (and if you see something you like, apply! Just don't forget to tell them Vern sent you! 🙂)
• 34:36 - People who help me think about testing (and life in general)
  • Angie (scroll up for the links!)
  • Ash Coleman Hynie's LinkedIn (don't forget to check out the app she's building over at CountrPT!)
  • Martin Hynie's LinkedIn (check out his new podcast The Ghost In Th Machine explaining AI!)
  • James Thomas's LinkedIn (he also has a wonderful blog)
• 37:35 - Dean Moon
  • Dean's website
  • Dean's LinkedIn
• 37:35 - Jit Gosai
  • Jit's blog 
  • Jit's Quality Engineering Newsletter 
  • Jit's LinkedIn
• 48:47 - Our influences
  • Vernon
    • Diary Of A CEO (DOAC)
    • Modern Wisdom
    • Owner Nation
    • Big Deal
    • Same As Ever by Morgan Housel
    • Things I need to go back and binge
      • AB Testing podcast
      • Quality Talks podcast
      • Testing Peers podcast
  • Richard
    • Engineering Quality podcast
    • Secrets Of Consulting by Jerry Weinberg
    • Explore It! by Elisabeth Hendrickson
    • Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman
    • Agile Testing and More Agile Testing both by Lisa Crispin and Janet Gregory
• 57:03 - Rachel Mlota
  • Rachel's YouTube
  • Rachel's LinkedIn
    
    

00:00 - Intro
00:46 - Welcome (Tiredness, Sleeper walls, sweaty chilli, and strongman training)
05:59 - QUESTION (Observation? Comment? Ramble? Whatever it is, thanks Olly!): How important is social media and community interaction to testing?
06:46 - Vernon's experience of social media over the years
08:30 - The impact of the "Influencer" phenomenon on testing
09: 59 - The golden age of Testing Twitter
10:57 - What LinkedIn can't replace
12:10 - The LinkedIn algorithm is weird!
13:15 - Algorithm anxiety and the overthinking spiral
15:45 - Community: planned vs organic
17:24 - Lurkers, reactors, and why it still counts
18:04 - To be or not to be... an influencer?
20:07 - Rich reflects on the impact of social media on him and testing
24:00 - Vern reflects on the impact of social media on him and testing
25:35 - The power of sharing with purpose (not just promoting yourself)
27:19 - QUESTION (From Olly): There seems to be a push to create content. What do you think about that?
30:12 - What is "content" anyway?
31:09 - Angie's 1-2-punch for content creation (that we should all copy!)
32:39 - Do you know why you're posting in the first place?!
33:23 - The impact of talking about testing (it's not just about "likes")
37:35 - Rabbiting on about writing
40:31 - Talking vs Doing
41:12 - Goal confusion & content fatigue
44:20 - Now that we mention it, what are OUR goals for content and social media?!
48:47 - QUESTION: What podcasts do you listen to, what books do you read, and do any of them influence what you'd like to do with the show?
57:20 - Where are we taking the podcast?
58:24 - Is Salesforce as dull as Rich thinks?
59:35 - Outro

00:00 - Intro

01:06 - Where have we been for a month?

06:16 - Men's Mental Health

09:46 - The Questions!

10:10 - QUESTION: To gate-keep, or not to gate-keep? That is the question from Deb Sherwood

22:05 - Olly impersonates Emily

22:33 - QUESTION: Mentorship advice

27:25 - Coaching vs Mentoring

28:10 - Vern's good and bad with experiences mentoring

28:57 - What role does accountability play in this?

29:38 - Informal mentoring

30:48 - Rich shares his experience mentoring a colleague

31:46 - Rich's good and bad experiences with mentoring

33:44 - Putting 💰 on the line

35:45 - Energy Vampires 🧛🏾

37:16 - The upside of being a mentor

39:17 - QUESTION: Onboarding into a new team or to a new product

40:40 - Rich's two-step process when he's in this situation

43:50 - Vern's kids teach him a valuable communication technique

45:24 - "Asking" & "Suggesting"

48:28 - The danger of suggesting things blindly

51:15 - Leadership inception

54:40 - Outro

Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod:

• 06:16 - Manchester Tech Festival
  • The MTF Mixer: Male Mental Health featuring
  • Kofi Josephs
    • Kofi's website for Why Not I
    • Kofi's Instagram
    • Kofi's LinkedIn
  • Jamie Lee Dennis
    • Jamie's LinkedIn
    • Jamie's website for Mandem Meetup
  • Dmitry Leyko
    • Dmitry's LinkedIn
  • James Davies
    • James' LinkedIn
• 08:56 - Vern's travels
  • Frankfurt for German Testing Days with Beren Van Daele
    • RiskStorming Online
  • Prague to meet my Phrase teammates
  • Manchester Tech Festival in... Manchester!
  • Zurich for GreaTest Conference
  • Liverpool to celebrate Liverpool FC winning the Premier League!
• 10:10 - Deb Sherwood
  • Deb's LinkedIn
• 15:37 - Jobs To Be Done (JTBD)
  • Courtesy of Perplexity, here are some references you might find useful that explain the JTBD concept
• 25:00 - S.M.A.R.T. goals
• 27:25 - The coaching vs mentoring rabbit hole on earlier episodes
• 29:13 - Ryan Cox
  • Ryan's website (if you check him out, tell him Vern sent you!)
  • Ryan's LinkedIn
• 35:45 - The Software Testers Journey book, written by Nicola Lindgren and me
• 40:30 - Automation in Testing references (via Perplexity)
• 41:18 - Resources about the 10 Ps of Testability
  • Article on testability featuring the 10 Ps
  • The book Team Guide to Software Testability by Ash Winter & Rob Meaney
    
    

In this engaging conversation, Vernon and Richard celebrate Liverpool's recent football victory while seamlessly transitioning into a discussion about automation in testing. They explore the definitions of automation, the importance of having a unified codebase for tests, and the challenges of choosing the right programming language for testing tools. The duo emphasizes the significance of collaboration between developers and testers, the need for regular review of tests, and the impact of context on decision-making in automation. The conversation is filled with insights and practical advice for anyone involved in software testing. In this conversation, Vernon and Richard explore the complexities of development and testing, focusing on the importance of language consistency, the role of developers in testing culture, and the challenges of tool standardization. They discuss the perception of automation skills in the industry, the distinction between coding and technical skills, and the need for context in automation. The conversation also touches on the future of AI in development and the balance between technical skills and automation. Finally, they share upcoming events and opportunities for community engagement.

* AI Generated show notes

00:00 Football Triumphs and Rivalries
01:43 Diving into Automation
04:28 Understanding Automation in Testing
05:58 Frameworks and Code Repositories
08:29 The Role of Developers in Automation
11:08 Challenges in Automation Implementation
13:11 Best Practices for Test Code Management
19:13 Building Communication Between Components
21:13 Understanding Context and Testability
23:21 The Dilemma of Skipping Tests
25:29 The Importance of Test Review and Discipline
27:55 Navigating Commercial Pressures in Testing
29:32 The Complexity of Automation in Different Languages
42:16 The Misconception of Technical Skills in Automation
45:45 The Automation Misconception
48:44 Technical Skills vs. Coding Skills
52:32 Understanding the Role of Automation
56:01 The Future of Testing in an AI World
59:46 The Value of Critical Thinking in Testing
01:03:36 Navigating the Job Market as a Tester
01:08:48 Upcoming Events and Community Engagement

00:00 - Intro

01:07 - Welcome to the Vernon Richard Emily Show

01:35 - Our viral moment

03:07 - Question: Do you think people are staying in tech jobs longer since the pandemic? The old time in role used to be about 2 years right?

17:00 - Income worries and diversification

20:20 - Question: I see loads of developers become accidental managers, but i don't think that's as common for testers - what do you think?

23:40 - Can Testing specialists become Engineering Managers (and beyond)?

26:06 - How does being a Quality Engineer impact your chances?

28:25 - Lived experience vs coaching

31:08 - We're already doing management and leadership

32:19 - What career paths are open to people with a testing background?

33:59 - Question: Do you think there is a good target ratio of dev:test professionals in greenfield projects? Brownfield projects etc. If not, what sort of thing do you think that depends on?

34:40 - It depends! On the project demands

35:20 - It depends! On what kind of people are in the team

37:10 - It depends! On testability

37:33 - And Rich's answer is...

39:19 - Sometimes you can't coach your way out of a situation

40:50 - It depends! On what good looks like

41:25 - It depends! On where the company is in it's life

44:35 - Question: My team release software to customers 1-2 times a week. Who do you think should be in that "go/no go" conversation?

46:46 - It depends 🤦🏾‍♂️

48:16 - go/no go meetings in 2002 versus 2025

Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod:

• 01:35 - Our most viral video to date
  • It's the short Sometimes it's best to quit your job
• 05:02 - Gary Stevenson, economist, trader, author
  • Gary's website
  • Gary's YouTube "Gary's Economics"
  • Gary's book "The Trading Game"
• 13:02 - Graham Freeburn
  • Happy retirement Graham!
• 17:00 - Here's the phrase Vernon butchered and what he was trying to convey
• 28:41 - The definition of coaching
  • The International Coaching Federation (ICF) define coaching as: "Partnering with clients in a thought-provoking and creative process that inspires them to maximize their personal and professional potential."
  • Here's Vernon explaining it during a presentation at Agile Testing Days
• 37:10 - Resources about the 10 Ps of Testability
  • Article on testability featuring the 10 Ps
  • The book Team Guide to Software Testability by Ash Winter & Rob Meaney
    
    

00:00 Introduction to the Podcast and Career Journeys
03:49 The Importance of Job Titles
10:08 Positioning and Expectations in Roles
20:37 Defining Roles and Responsibilities
27:47 Evolution of Testing Roles
29:09 Navigating Challenges in Testing
30:08 The Role of Leadership in Quality Assurance
31:09 Understanding Job Expectations in Consulting
32:28 The Importance of Experience in Consulting
34:38 Context Gathering for Effective Consulting
36:33 Identifying Root Causes in Testing Issues
37:25 Adapting Responses Based on Context
38:51 The Art of Job Crafting
41:38 Shifting Perspectives on Best Practices
44:16 Balancing Expectations and Reality in Consulting
47:17 Recognizing When to Walk Away
48:39 The Impact of Context on Job Titles
51:48 Reflecting on Skills Beyond Job Titles

In this episode, Vernon and Richard reflect on their experiences at the PeersCon conference, discussing the engaging keynote speakers, insightful workshops, and the overall atmosphere of the event. They share their thoughts on various talks, emphasizing the importance of communication, quality, and personal growth in the software testing industry. The conversation highlights the value of community and collaboration, as well as the significance of learning from both successes and failures in one's career. In this episode, Vernon and Richard reflect on their experiences at PeersCon, discussing memorable moments, workshops attended, and the importance of communication in the testing field. They delve into specific workshops like Pipeline and Risk Storming, and the game 'Defend the Indefensible', which encourages critical thinking and perspective-taking. The conversation also touches on feedback for future events, emphasizing the need for a balance between communication and testing topics, and the importance of recognizing the efforts of event organizers.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Conference Overview

03:42 Reflections on PeersCon and Community Engagement

06:35 Keynote Highlights and Speaker Insights

09:30 Workshops and Learning Experiences

12:29 Communication and Quality in Software Development

15:27 Personal Growth and Career Development

18:22 Closing Thoughts and Future Events

25:06 Exploring Engaging Talks at the Conference

27:57 Tom's Journey: From Manufacturing to Software Testing

29:10 Linda's Comedy of Errors: A Unique Perspective on Automation

32:43 The Reality of Coding: Enjoyment vs. Competence

39:37 Networking and Unexpected Encounters at the Venue

42:57 Workshops: Enhancing Technical Understanding and Communication Skills

52:17 The Importance of Communication in IT and Life

54:39 Feedback and Constructive Criticism

57:36 Balancing Communication and Testing in Conferences

01:00:29 Enhancing Event Experience and Sponsor Engagement

01:04:34 Acknowledging Organizers and Their Contributions

01:08:34 Sustaining Affordability and Accessibility in Events

Links to come!

Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod:

• 01:35 - Quality Talks
  • Check out their awesome new website
• 02:37 - The Agile Testing Days Conference
  • Oh! Their Call For Papers is open until the end of March. You should submit!
• 02:42 - Johnny J. Jones
  • Johnny's LinkedIn
• 03:23 - Continuous Delivery & Continuous Deployment
  • What is Continuous Delivery?
  • What is Continuous Deployment?
• 03:31 - Abby Bangser
  • Abby's LinkedIn
• 05:24 - Keith Klain
  • Keith's blog
  • Keith's podcast
  • Keith's LinkedIn
• 23:51 - Dan Ashby's famous post called "Continuous Testing" (featuring his famous diagram!)
• 28:45 - James Bach's Test Jumper concept
  • James' website
  • James' LinkedIn
• 31:20 - All of these people should probably change their last names to "Bourne"
• 40:18 - James Christie
  • James' blog
  • James' body of work regarding the Post Office Scandal
• 43:37 - Trunk-Based Thierry de Pauw
  • Thierry's website
  • Thierry's LinkedIn
• 48:30 - Jerry Weinberg's 2nd Law of Consulting from his book The Secrets of Consulting
  • "No matter how it looks at first, it's always a people problem."
  • Find more of Jerry's quotes on this page
  • Jerry's Wikipedia page (his books are highly recommended)

Bonus links to further study on the topic:

• 
  What's the difference between Continuous Delivery and Continuous Deployment?
• The book Continuous Delivery, seminal work on the topic by Dave Farley & Jez Humble
• Speaking of Dave Farley...
  • You can visit his website to find links to allTheThings
  • Here's his excellent YouTube channel Modern Software Engineering
  • He's written a second book Modern Software Engineering
• Speaking of Jez Humble...
  • He wrote the excellent book Accelerate with lead author Dr. Nicole Forsgren (<- all of Dr. Nicole's work is recommended reading at this point)
  • And here's his website
• I asked ChatGPT for some resources and it gave me this list (proceed with caution just in case!). 

00:00 - Intro

01:06 - Merch tangent

02:53 - Today's topic:

• What skills and behaviours does a Tester need, in order to be successful when they work in a CI/CD context?
• What does testing look like in a team using CI/CD?

04:08 - ⚽️ Footy

04:40 - Compare and contrast

07:00 - What conversation(s) needs to happen before "pressing the button" and who needs to be involved in it?

08:25 - Deployed Vs Released

13:37 - Monitoring and tooling to enable CI/CD practices

17:25 - Where/how do reviews fit into this?

20:38 - Back to Shift Left!

23:51 - Where does the testing happen?

24:36 - The link between chef Gordon Ramsey and software testing

25:45 - What are we reeeally talking about here?

27:09 - How to reframe things when someone makes the polarising claim "We don't need Testers in CI/CD/DevOps teams"

29:35 - Q: So how would I test differently if I were a Tester in a CI/CD team? A: Test like Jason Bourne.

32:00 - The value of having a tool belt and using it regularly

33:06 - How to catch a unicorn? How to unbundle testing skills

35:40 - This all loops back to risks & culture

37:03 - Where would it be a bad idea to use Continuous Deployment?

40:45 - Q: So how would I test differently if I were a Tester in a CI/CD team? A: Test like a Circus Ringmaster.

42:39 - Moar Shift Left: Real Devs build on Main

48:48 - Modern Vs Traditional mindsets

50:30 - Quality enters the chat...

51:00 - The relationship between risk and quality

52:47 - Testing Vs Quality Engineering

55:50 - ⚽️ Footy

Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod:

• 10:28 - Selenium
  • The Selenium website
  • The BiDi spec
• 10:44 - Jason & Simon
  • Jason's LinkedIn
  • Simon's LinkedIn
• 13:17 - James Thomas
  • Here's an example of what I mean
  • And another!
  • Aaaaaand another!
• 27:02 - The PEBCAK error
• 27:28 Conferences
  • 27:58 - PeersCon 2025
  • 28:17 - Agile Testing Days 2025
  • 28:29 - Let's Test SA
    • Please DM if you can commit to going and/or know of companies that would be willing to sponsor!
  • BONUS - The legendary Chris Kenst maintains Software Testing Conferences, which has a list of allTheConferences
• 29:33 - Martin Hynie
  • Martin's newsletter
  • Martin's LinkedIn

00:00 - Intro
01:11 - Is it our birthday yet?
01:52 - The Forced Socio-Economic Day episode
02:20 - What do we love about our careers?
03:07 - We love PEOPLE
04:39 - Different kids of friendship
06:08 - Making a huge impact on people with tiny interactions
08:18 - The benefit of being tool aware
10:10 - We love TOOLS
10:20 - Rich's favourite tool
12:03 - Vern's favourite tool
15:40 - We love the VARIETY
18:21 - We love TEACHING
19:58 - What does the balance look like between teaching, mentoring, and coaching in Rich's current role
22:33 - We love CHALLENGE
23:51 - Systems thinking and understanding how things work
27:28 - We love CONFERENCES
35:35 - Mutual appreciation ❤️
36:28 - The Friendly Tester is Dead. Long Live Richard Bradshaw!

The discussion highlights the importance of goals, tasks, and tool awareness in AI, drawing parallels to software testing and the dynamics of generalists versus specialists in the tech industry. The conversation concludes with reflections on the implications of these technologies for the future. In this conversation, Vernon and Richard explore the evolving landscape of AI, particularly focusing on agentic AI and its implications for testing and quality assurance.

They discuss the importance of defining clear goals and expected outcomes for AI tasks, the need for quality characteristics in AI outputs, and the critical role of human oversight in AI decision-making. The conversation also touches on iterative learning, exploratory testing, and the future of AI in the testing domain, emphasizing the necessity for testers to adapt and enhance their skills in this rapidly changing environment.

Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod:

• 02:40 - Ben Kelly
  • Ben's LinkedIn
  • Ben's IMDb
• 06:38 - Martin Hynie's video explaining Agentic AI
  • Be sure to check out the resources he shared in the comments too. Goodness gracious 🎯
• 12:19 - CrewAI the tool Rich was experimenting with
• 13:27 - And for funsies we asked ChatGPT the same question
• 17:52 - Jason Arbon
  • Jason's website
  • Jason's LinkedIn
• 23:23 - Persona-based testing
• 24:11 - Context-driven testing
• 01:08:43 - Other folks & materials you can learn from
  • The deeplearning.ai website
  • Tariq King
    • Here's what Perplexity came up with!
    • His workshop: An Introduction to AI-Driven Test Automation
    • His presentation: Integrating GenAI for Testing into the Software Lifecycle
    • Tariq's LinkedIn
  • Melissa Eaden
    • Mel's newsletter
      • The issue called is "A Fable about GenAI" is excellent
    • Mel's LinkedIn
  • Mark Winteringham
    • Mark's website
    • Mark's GenAI book
    • Mark's LinkedIn
  • Martin Hynie
    • Martin's newsletter
      • The series "So You Just Got Assigned Your First GenAI Project" is golden
    • Martin's LinkedIn
      • Go to his profile. Find the "Activity" section. Use the "Videos" link/button to filter his posts. Watch the videos. Thank me later.
  • Bill Matthews
    • Bill's LinkedIn

00:00 - Intro
01:14 - Welcome
04:02 - Rich's adventures learning about AI
05:24 - Rich goes down the Agentic AI rabbit hole
07:00 - GenAI vs Agentic AI
12:45 - Understanding Agentic AI vs. Traditional AI
13:27 - What's the difference between the term "Agent" and "Agentic"?
15:20 - How would Rich describe or categorise a chatbot?
16:15 - What makes something agentic then?
17:52 - Jason helps Rich understand what to expect from his exploration
18:51 - What's the relationship between goals and tasks?
20:06 - Rich explains what makes this so interesting for him and got him excited
26:12 - Empowering Agents with the Right Tools
27:47 - Understanding Tasks vs. Goals
28:45 - Breaking Down Tasks for Efficiency
29:44 - How much agency do agents have?
31:38 - Task Descriptions and Expected Outcomes
33:03 - Teams of agents vs teams of people and specialists vs generalists
35:48 - How does an agent decide what to do next and how does it know it has completed the task?
36:40 - Defining Quality in Agent Outputs
38:15 - MOAR testing concepts that have parallels with Rich's exploration
40:28 - The consequences of not being accurate enough with your backstory, expected output, tasks, etc
43:34 - What happens when agenticai is asked to achieve the same goal without changing anything about the backstory, expected output, tasks, etc?
45:40 - Challenges of Iteration and Learning
46:47 - What are max iterations and what does that remind Rich of?
47:40 - Vern wonders how important semantics is going to be and how Testers can contribute to this work
49:42 - Rich riffs on exploratory testing
51:02 - Exploratory Testing and Agentic Learning. What does the Tester's story look like in the context of an agentic system from the agent's perspective?
54:15 - Exploring Autonomy in AI Systems
56:57 - Evaluating AI Outputs and Task Design
58:21 - What happens if/when the context is left blank in these agentic systems?
01:00:49 - Soooo where do the humans fit in if agentic systems can doAllTheThings?
01:02:37 - Wrap up: Take 1 - Designing small targeted tests vs designing small targeted tasks
01:04:46 - Wrap up: Take 2 - Agents delegating tasks to other agents. Er... WTF?!
01:06:00 - Wrap up: Take 3 - How is Rich feeling about AI & AI tools?
01:09:45 - Wrap up: Take 4 - Testers ASSEMBLE! How we're going to contribute in a world of AI

Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod:

• 05:35 - The Yearly Review by Dickie Bush & Nicolas Cole
  • This is an updated version of the one Vernon discussed in the episode. Win!
• 07:52 - Some helpful journalling prompts from Dickie
• 08:18 - The workshop Vernon mentioned is called The Productivity Spark 2025
  • It was a free to attend online workshop BUT... It looks like the link is down 😞. Vernon suspects the free workshop will be run quarterly, so keep your eyes and ears open for the next one. In the meantime, here are some other helpful resources from Ali.
    • Ali's website
    • Ali's free stuff
    • Ali's book
    • Ali's YouTube channel
    • Ali's Productivity course/community
• 09:49 - The CountrPT app by Ash Coleman Hynie
• 12:08 - Ilari Henrik Aegerter
  • Ilari's LinkedIn
• 17:03 - Elizabeth Zagroba
  • Sign-up for the FroGS peer conference that Elizabeth organises (with help from her pals) because it's awesome!
  • Elizabeth's blog
  • Elizabeth's LinkedIn
• 26:00 - Ben Kelly
  • Ben's LinkedIn
• 28:48 - Toby Sinclair
  • Toby's website
  • Toby's LinkedIn
• 34:55 - Daniel Priestly
  • Daniel's YouTube
• 35:14 - John Cutler
  • John's Substack
  • John's LinkedIn
• 36:30 - Martin Hynie
  • Martin's LinkedIn
• 36:49 - Melissa Eaden
  • Mel's Substack
  • Melissa's LinkedIn
• 41:25 - The DOSE Effect
  • The book
  • A conversation on the topic between Ali Abdaal & TJ Power the book's author
• 58:05 - Some references for the internal board of directors and invisible council concept from Perplexity
• 01:00:46 - The System Seeing Challenge by Ruth Malan
  • Ruth's website
  • The guide book for A Month of System Seeing

00:00 - Intro: New Year, New Goals

01:09 - Welcome

01:33 - Today's theme: Achieving our goals

03:29 - How are we approaching goal setting and achieving goals?

05:35 - Vernon describes the Yearly Review process he used

07:52 - Journalling as a means to remember what happened throughout the year

09:33 - Where else would journalling be useful?

11:20 - Rich talks about notebooks and how he uses writing to achieve his goals and remember his wins

12:58 - Rich's goals for 2025

15:30 - Timeblocking FTW!

16:39 - Starting small

18:23 - Vernon's goals for 2025

19:26 - Richard's reading goals and his library

24:15 - How to stay accountable: Building in public & Accountability buddies

31:34 - How to stay accountable: Bullet journal

34:21 - Vern shares the concept of "Look at me" vs "Look at this" content

39:10 - Rich realises why he hasn't done as much signal boosting as he used to

41:25 - How to stay accountable: Managing dopamine

44:55 - Managing focus by removing distraction

47:49 - Intention and finding a balance between resting vs procrastination and striving vs obsession

54:10 - How to stack the odds of success i

02:00 Happy to be Employed

05:00 Vernon Wrote a Book

08:00 Talking at a Developer Conferences

16:20 PeersCon

20:24 Our Podcast

21:50 Agile Testing Days Experience

22:20 Our Podcast again

28:30 Bluesky

32:30 Vernon’s New Newsletter

41:00 Generalist Specialist and AI

51:00 Discipline and Consistency

54:00 Vernon’s Personal Reflection

55:40 Richard’s Personal Reflection

Links to stuff that we mentioned:

05:00 - Mark’s and Nicola’s Book - The Software Tester’s Journey

05:01 - Nicola Lindgren Bluesky Profile

08:00 - Richard’s talk at Oredev

08:00 - Øredev conference - https://oredev.org/

11:30 - Abby Bangser - Bluesky Profile

15:30 - Gitte Klitgaard - Bluesky Profile

16:20 - PeersCon - https://testingpeerscon.com/

18:24 - Beth Probert - https://www.linkedin.com/in/bethprobert/

18:48 - Testing Peers Podcast

21:20 - Our Agile Testing Days Podcast episode

21:46 - Agile Testing Days conference

29:00  - Tobias Geyer Bluesky

32:30 - Jit Gosai Bluesky

32:30 - JIt Gosai Quality Engineering Newsletter

Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod:

• 01:00 - Agile Testing Days 2024 (ATD)
  • ATD's website
• 02:00 - 🤠 Señor Performo aka Leandro Melendez (who Vernon definitely did NOT call Leonardo 😅😇🤥🥷🐢🤦🏾‍♂️)
  • Señor Performo's website
  • Señor Performo's English YouTube channel 🇬🇧
  • Señor Performo's Español YouTube channel 🇪🇸
  • Señor Performo's English podcast channel 🇬🇧
  • Señor Performo's Español podcast channel 🇪🇸
  • Señor Performo's book
  • Señor Performo's LinkedIn
  • Señor Performo's X
• 03:00 - Richard's tutorial Targeted Automated Tests
• 04:35 - Mark Winteringham
  • Mark's website
  • Mark's books (probably why he's so slick with words!)
• 10:07 - Lisa Crispin & João Proença
  • Lisa's website and LinkedIn pages
  • Lisa's Bluesky
  • João's LinkedIn page
  • João's Bluesky
• 10:17 - José "Pepe" Díaz & Uwe Gelfert
  • José's website
  • José's Bluesky
  • José's LinkedIn
  • Uwe's LinkedIn
• 11:25 - Alex(andra) Schladebeck
  • Alex's website
  • Alex's LinkedIn
• 13:05 - The cast
  • Samuel "Robot Overlord" Nitsche
  • Lena "Test Management Saviour" Pejgan Nyström
  • Rachel "Pitch Perfect" Kibler
  • Veerle "Light Sabre Extraordinaire" Verhagen
  • Tamara "Putting the "Rock Star" in Rock Star Developer" Josten
  • Callum "The stage is my happy place" Akehurst-Ryan
  • Bastian "Best Bad Boss Ever" Knerr
  • Tobias "Chill Samuel I've got this" Geyer
  • Did you order a light sabre duel with your musical? You did? Well here you go!
• 19:32 - Leandro's workshop Ramping up modern performance
• 21:53 - Jenna Charlton
  • The description of Jenna's ATD keynote Testing, Identity, and Symbols
  • Jenna's LinkedIn
  • Jenna's Bluesky
  • Martin Hynie
    • Martin describing the wider impact of his talk, including a link to the talk itself
    • Martin's LinkedIn
• 22:57 - Ashley Hunsberger
  • Ashley's LinkedIn
• 39:05 - Bart Knaack
  • Bart's LinkedIn
• 42:21 - Emily Bache
  • The description of Emily's ATD keynote Technical coaching development teams using the Samman method
  • Emily's YouTube
  • The Samman Society website
  • The Hartman Proficiency Taxonomy by Marian Hartman
  • Bloom's taxonomy for cognitive thinking
  • Paul Holland another ATD contributor of allTheThings and Rubix Cube legend
  • Emily's LinkedIn
• 47:16 - Ash "Data is dope" Hynie
  • Ash's LinkedIn
  • CountrPT's website
  • CountrPT's LinkedIn
  • Patrick Prill (who aside from being a generalist, also gives THE BEST hugs around, trust me on this folks!)
  • Rita Avota
  • Ben Dowen
  • Joao Proenca
    
    

01:00 - Intro LIVE from Agile Testing Days!
03:00 - Why are we here?
10:52 - The importance of networking and conferences
12:17 - What kind of event is ATD?
13:05 - The ATD Musical (you read that correctly)
18:29 - Guest: Señor Performo discussing who he is and performance testing
21:53 - Guest: Jenna Charlton explaining the relationship between testing, identity, and symbols
36:15 - Guest: Basti aka Bastian "Best Bad Boss Ever" Knerr talking about being part of the musical
39:05 - Guest: Baart Knack talking about his escapades at ATD over the years and hi...

00:00 Introduction and Veganism Discussion
02:58 Celebrating Achievements and Book Launch
06:00 Writing Process and Content Creation
08:54 Collecting Ideas: The Fieldstone Method
11:55 Building in Public and Sharing Experiences
15:04 Networking and Community Engagement
17:58 Reflections on Social Media Dynamics
21:00 The Importance of Collecting Stories
23:55 Conference Experience and Innovations
26:53 Q&A Dynamics at Events
32:25 Reflections on the Husteth Conference
34:09 The Power Cut Incident
39:43 The Importance of Q&A Sessions
45:21 Closing Keynote Experience
49:42 Traveling and Networking at Conferences
52:22 Conversations and Connections at Events
57:11 Final Thoughts and Takeaways

00:00 - Intro

00:16 - Ben's question: If you could do any co-lab with anyone from the community, who would it be, and what might it look like?

05:43 - Leigh's question: Where do you and vern see yourselves in 5 years, or want to be in 5 years, doing what kind of role in what kind of company?

15:46 - Andy's question: When I speak with people, I love hearing how their Quality/Testing mindset spills over into day to day life. One person used to test their childrens' toys by seeing if they could use them one-handed covered in olive oil. Another guy would occasionally test how far away his TV remote would work and see if it changes 😂

Maybe you've covered this stuff already, but personally I always love hearing about these funny quirks and testing 'life'.

26:05 - Emily's question: What's the best swag you've ever picked up from a testing event?

31:29 - Mark's question: Have you ever walked in to a pub that's so bad you want to instantly leave, But because of obligated politeness and fear of that awkward feeling of walking straight out again you go stayed?

35:08 - Ide's question: Looking back, best learning ever (at that moment perhaps biggest fail ever), with context, and what/when did it change from: Argh! to Ahhh!

40:53 - Anonymous question: Do you think one of your test environments should match the spec of production?

Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod:

• 00:16 - Stuff from Ben's question
  • Butch Mayhew
    • Butch's website
    • Butch's LinkedIn
  • Ben Dowen
    • Ben's LinkedIn
  • Lisi Hocke
    • Lisi's blog
    • Lisi's LinkedIn
  • Nicola Lindgren
    • Nicola's YouTube channel
    • Nicola's blog
    • The book we're writing called "The Tester's Journey"!
    • Nicola's first book "Starting Your Software Testing Career"!
    • Nicola's LinkedIn
  • Karen Todd
    • Karen's YouTube channel
    • Karen's LinkedIn
  • Dean Moon
    • Dean's website
    • Dean's LinkedIn
  • Ash Coleman Hynie
    • Ash's new product CountrPT!
    • Ash's LinkedIn
  • Kelsey Hightower
    • Kelsey's X (formerly Twitter) account
  • Manchester Tech Festival
    • Their website
    • Their founder Amy Newton
  • Emily O'Connor
    • Emily's LinkedIn
  • Dorothy "Dot" Graham
    • Dorothy's LinkedIn
  • Janet Gregory
    • Janet's website
    • Janet's LinkedIn
  • Abby Bangser
    • Abby's LinkedIn
  • Melissa Eaden
    • Mel's blog
    • Mel's LinkedIn
• Stuff from Leigh's question
  • Leigh Rathbone
    • Leigh's LinkedIn
  • Alan Page
    • Alan's newsletter
    • Alan and Brent's podcast
    • Alan's LinkedIn
  • The Black Tech Unplugged Podcast hosted by Deena McKay
    • NB (from Vernon): I got the name of the podcast wrong 🤦🏾‍♂️! I mentioned the Tech Is The New Black podcast, which is awesome but crucially, NOT the one Deena creates. Forgive me Deena 🙏🏾.
  • The Quality Bits podcast hosted by Lina Zubyte
    • NB (from Vernon): I blundered AGAIN 🤦🏾‍♂️! The name of the pod is Quality Bits, BITS! Not Bytes. Good grief. Sorry Lina 🙏🏾
  • Daniel Knott
    • Daniel's YouTube channel (with 107,000 subscribers at the time of writing 🤯)
    • Daniel's blog
    • Daniel's books
      • Hands-On Mobile App Testing on Leanpub
      • Smartwatch App Testing on Leanpub
    • Daniel's LinkedIn
  • Joe Colantonio
    • Joe's YouTube (with 387,000 subscribers at the time of writing 🤯)
    • Joe's website
• Stuff from Andy's question
  • Andy Johnson
    • Andy's LinkedIn
  • Del Dewar
    • Del's blog
    • Del's PS5 bot
    • Del's LinkedIn
• Stuff from Emily's question
  • Emily O'Connor
    • Emily's LinkedIn
• Stuff from Mark's question
  • Mark Gillott
    • Mark's LinkedIn
• Stuff from Ide's question
  • Ide Koops
    • Ide's LinkedIn
• Stuff from the Anonymous question
  • Christian Legget
    • Christian's LinkedIn
  • Jonathan Marshall
    • Jonathan's LinkedIn
      
      

The conversation also touches on the changing expectations of developers compared to testers and the need for leaders to have a better understanding of the role and value of testers. The conversation explores the disconnect between the expectations and perspectives of testing and quality engineers. It highlights the need for leaders to take responsibility for creating a supportive environment and culture. The role of tools and marketing in shaping these expectations is also discussed.

The conversation concludes with the importance of clear communication, understanding the needs of the team, and nurturing the growth of testers and quality engineers.

#podcast #softwaretesting #software #softwaredevelopment 

Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod:

• 11:38 - Challenge Networks. Listen to Adam Grant explain the concept of a Challenge Network on the DOAC podcast.
• 26:30 - Jerry Weinberg's 2nd Law of Consulting from his book The Secrets of Consulting
  • "No matter how it looks at first, it's always a people problem."
  • Find more of Jerry's quotes on this page
• 28:40 - Vern talking about his talk in episode 6 "How No-Code Test Tools, Technical Leadership & Glue Work Impact Software Quality"
  • Tanya's Glue Work presentation which you can read or watch
  • "What Is Quiet Quitting?" a BBC News article describing the phenomenon
  • Vernon's Agile Yorkshire presentation where he describes the link between those concepts
• 29:19 - Martin Hynie
  • Martin describing the wider impact of his talk
  • Martin's LinkedIn
• 30:59 - Maaret Pyhäjärvi & Anna Baik
  • Anna's quote that Maaret shared on LinkedIn
  • Anna's LinkedIn
  • Maaret's LinkedIn
• 34:35 - Prompt Engineer
  • What's a Prompt Engineer?
• 35:30 - Adelina Chalmers
  • Adelina's AMA session that I joined (please follow her and join her sessions, she's AWESOME!)
  • Adelina's LinkedIn

00:00 Introduction and Technical Discussion
01:27 - What's going on with Rich's fingers?!
01:36 Challenges and Misunderstandings Faced by Testers and Quality Engineers
01:54 - Everything the Testers in your team want to tell you but are too afraid
02:50 - Vern's theory
07:40 - Why do other roles get "the nutrients" they need?
08:09 The Value of Testers and the Need for Supportive Leadership
10:26 - What do leaders misunderstand about the value of Testers and QEs?
11:38 - Support networks Vs Challenger networks
12:09 - The bugs we report that people REALLY don't like!
12:43 - System problems disguised as testing problems
14:37 Shifting Expectations for Developers and the Evolving Understanding of Testing
14:53 - Groundhog day!
16:10 - Rich wonders if our expectations are reasonable
19:29 - How does the world perceive Developers, Designers, and Testers?
21:04 - How expectations have changed for Developers
23:07 Creating a Supportive and Nurturing Environment for Testers
24:08 - How a lack of curiosity impacts the wellbeing of your team
26:21 - Expectation vs Reality
26:59 Bridging the Gap: Expectations and Perspectives
27:27 - How to collaborate on expectations with the Tester in your life!
28:37 - Martin's crazy experiments, Glue Work, Technical Leadership, and Quality Engineering
30:13 - What does this tell us about the culture of the organisation?
30:58 Creating a Supportive Environment for Testers and Quality Engineers
31:52 - Rich asks if this is only a problem for people like us?
32:41 The Role of Tooling in Shaping Expectations
35:30 - What can we learn from the CEO/CTO relationship?
38:12 - What can we learn from relationships, period?
40:19 - ⚽️ Footy
42:16 - The impact of language and narrative on testing in the test tool market
45:50 - The link between testing, manual labour, and knowledge work
46:20 Advocating for Testers and Quality Engineers
47:10 - Hiring to solve problems or to put bums in seats
48:00 - Rich takes us back to the chicken and egg
50:08 - A potential new focus and name for the show!
51:22 - Outro

They also discuss the power dynamic in the hiring process and provide advice for job seekers on how to mitigate potential problems. They highlight the value of storytelling and narrative in CVs and suggest cherry-picking relevant experiences to showcase in job applications.

In this conversation, Richard and Vernon discuss job hunting strategies and offer advice for those looking for new roles. They emphasize the importance of networking, building a personal brand, and being intentional about what you share on platforms like LinkedIn.

They also discuss the distinction between skills and tools in job specifications and CVs, encouraging a focus on transferable skills rather than specific tools. The conversation concludes with a call for feedback and suggestions from listeners.

#softwaretesting #software #hiring #hiringtips

Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod:

• 01:43 - Vernon's LinkedIn post about how NOT to handle "red flags" spotted on CVs!
• 09:41 - Wayne Bennett, FRSA, CertRP
  • Wayne's comment on my post
  • Wayne's recruitment firm Made4Tech Global
  • Wayne's LinkedIn
• 17:47 - Recruiters we think are awesome!
  • Wayne Bennet's LinkedIn (particularly for Manchester and NW England roles)
  • Kelli Jackson's LinkedIn (for North American roles and runs a community for midlifers changing careers)
  • Gabbi Trotter's LinkedIn (UK wide but particularly the North West and Midlands roles)
  • Samir Mehta's LinkedIn (although he's internal now & works with Rich the poor guy)
  • Jamie Doyle's LinkedIn (UK wide and a legend)
  • Kristina Javůrková's LinkedIn (for Benelux roles)
  • Matt Drinkwater's LinkedIn (UK wide and hosts QE Babble)
  • James Duke's LinkedIn (UK wide and lover of fast cars)
• 18:07 - Book: Never Split The Difference by Chris Voss
  • An explanation of Labelling
  • An explanation of an Accusation Audit
  • Chris's website
  • Grab the book from Amazon
• 23:53 - Huib Schoots
  • Huib's website
  • And Huib is one of the folks I've heard talk about storytelling! You can find that presentation here.
  • Huib's LinkedIn
• 32:28 - Alan Richardson
  • Alan's website
  • Alan's Patreon community
  • Alan's LinkedIn
• 43:01 - The Quality Talks Podcast
  • The Quality Talks podcast hosted by Stu and Chris
  • Stu's LinkedIn
  • Chris's Linkedin
• 48:01 - Elizabeth Zagroba
  • Elizabeth's article Doubt Builds Trust
    • Which contains an example of a Trustworthy CV
  • Elizabeth's website
  • Elizabeth's LinkedIn
• 53:18 - The Never Search Alone movement

00:00 - Intro
00:49 - Let's talk about hiring
01:00 - Hiring managers annoying habits
01:43 - Vern's rant about "red flags" on CVs
03:59 - Rich explains why he thinks option C is reasonable (in the circumstances!)
05:30 - Hiring is like software development!
05:37 - Red flags == Bugs in production
06:42 - Red flags == Feature flags / AB tests
09:41 - A recruiter's perspective on the issue
12:15 - How Rich approached his recent job search
14:11 - Don't be passive during the interview: Asking questions, clarifications, and storytelling
15:30 - How to handle objections during an interview
16:36 - The importance of weaving the hidden gems of your experience into you interview
18:07 - How Labelling and Accusation Audits can help you in interviews
How to combine labelling and an accusation audits to your advantage in interviews
19:31 - Leverage your risk analysis skills to prep for your interview
20:30 - How to sell yourself short in an interview
23:20 - The meta skill of storytelling
24:49 - Storytelling with your CV
28:04 - Excellent advice about leveraging LinkedIn that Vern isn't following!
29:49 - Rich's advice about what information to include and Vern's mysterious friends' experience trying to take that advice
31:26 - Contradictory job hunting advice and how to swerve it
32:05 - The ultimate hack(s) for job hunting
36:10 - How do you decide or calculate what kind of material to include in your "personal brand"?
41:09 - The balance of serious vs fun content
43:01 - Rich questions who Vern chooses to hang out with
43:39 - How to share other people's ideas and yours at the same time
45:47 - Shout out to PastRich!
46:06 - Rich wants to talk about how we talk about skills
48:01 - Elizabeth Zagroba's interesting take on writing CVs
51:21 - Vern has an idea for the next episode
52:51 - What advice did we miss? Help!

They also touch on the emotions involved in software testing and how they can be clues to underlying problems. The conversation explores various emotions experienced during software testing, including frustration, joy, fear, suspicion, and familiarity. Frustration often arises when encountering bugs or issues, while joy can be felt when using a well-designed and user-friendly app. Fear is associated with the potential for irreversible actions or data loss. Suspicion arises when recognizing patterns or past experiences that may indicate potential problems. Familiarity helps in identifying missing features or inconsistencies.

The conversation also touches on the concept of behavior-driven development (BDD) and the importance of having conversations and automating them rather than just documenting them.

#exploratorytesting #softwaretesting #testing #software #softwaredevelopment #emotions

00:00 - Intro attempt no. 1
00:50 - Intro attempt no. 2
01:16 - ⚽️ Footy
01:46 - ⚽️ Footy related preamble to the question
03:01 - Dream job question
03:36 - Space! The final frontier!
03:54 Dream Job: Working at SpaceX and Developing Software for Rockets
08:30 - Dream job: Nintendo, adventure games, and storytelling
11:54 The Fascination with Rockets and Space
17:04 - Emotions in software testing
19:41 Beyond Functionality: The Importance of User Experience and Emotions
20:10 The Role of Emotions in Software Testing
20:35 Using Frustration and Anger as Indicators of Improvement Areas
21:29 Learning and Coding: Frustration and Joy
22:36 BDD and Sweary Outbursts
23:56 The Importance of Clear User Scenarios
25:34 The Value of Conversations in BDD
26:50 - Joyful testing
28:57 Fear and Suspicion in Testing
31:14 The Anxiety of Sending Money
33:27 - Suspicion and that feeling of de ja vu
36:09 Applying Past Experiences and Patterns
37:25 The Evolution of Suspicion and Familiarity
39:27 The Role of Heuristics in Testing
41:24 The Absence of Joy in Testing
42:46 Emotions as a Guide for Testing Strategies and Approaches

Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod:

• 00:09 - Krisp
  • Krisp.ai - Noise cancelling software (not an affiliate link!)
• 00:56 - Tristan Lombard
  • Tristan's LinkedIn
  • Tristan's Twitter
• Vincent Kompany
• 03:36 - SpaceX
• 07:02 - Virgin Galactic
  • Their website
  • Historic mission which included the first women astronauts from the Caribbean
  • Antogua
• 08:34 - Nintendo
• 09:50 - Wonder Boy III: The Dragon's Trap
  • Wonder Boy III: The Dragon's Trap wiki page
• 10:44 - The Zelda games
  • The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past wiki page
• 12:49 - Daniel Knott
  • Daniel's YouTube channel
  • Daniel's blog
  • Daniel's books
    • Hands-On Mobile App Testing on Leanpub
    • Smartwatch App Testing on Leanpub
  • Daniel's LinkedIn
• 22:45 - Behaviour Driven Development
  • What is BDD? Doc page on cucumber.io
  • And again on the wiki page
• 24:59 - Mark Winteringham
  • Mark's website and blog
  • Mark's LinkedIn
• 25:43 - Liz Keogh
  • "Having the conversation > Documenting the conversation > Automating the conversation" Check out Slide 14 of Liz's excellent course Behaviour Driven Development
• 38:40 - Beren van Daele
  • Beren's Testsphere cards (including links where you can buy your own deck - RECOMMEND!)
  • The RiskStorming process based on the Testsphere deck for discovering risks (including using emotions!)
  • Beren's website
  • Beren's LinkedIn

The hosts emphasize the need to understand the complexity of software testing and not jump to conclusions or blame testers. They highlight the importance of continuous improvement, learning from mistakes, and taking ownership of problems.

The conversation also touches on the debate around releasing software on Fridays and the need for context-specific decision-making. The conversation explores the impact of software bugs and the importance of quality in software development. It discusses the ability to turn off software in critical situations, the challenges of working on low-level or embedded software, and the need for risk mitigation.

The conversation also touches on the response of CrowdStrike to the recent software bug and the potential human impact of such incidents. The concept of quality in software is examined, and the conversation concludes with a discussion on the increasing prevalence of software in various industries.

Links & Mentions

• 01:01 - Crowdstrike
  • Who are they?
    • This is their wikipedia page
    • This is their About us page
• 01:17 - What is a kernel?
• 01:56 - What happened?
  • BBC article - Crowdstrike release causes "Mass IT outage affects airlines, hospitals, media and banks"
  • Preliminary Post Incident Review from Crowdstrike
• 05:32 - Dave's garage explanation of what happened 😙🤌🏾 (Ex-Microsoft Dev)
• 12:46 - Rich's LinkedIn posted about jumping to conclusions in the wake of the Crowdstrike issue
• 15:38 - Mark Winteringham
  • Mark's website and blog
  • Mark's excellent blog post about "Quality Engineering, Digital Employees and Job Security"
  • Mark's LinkedIn
• 28:00 - Article: Crowdstrike CEO called to congress
• 37:59 - Crowdstrike updates
  • Their blog
  • Their Remediation and Guidance Hub: Falcon Content Update for Windows Hosts
  • Their Preliminary Post Incident Review (PIR): Content Configuration Update Impacting the Falcon Sensor and the Windows Operating System (BSOD)
• 44:47 - Dame Anita Frew
  • Who is Dame Anita Frew?

00:00 Introduction and Appreciation for Listeners
00:33 - Did anything interesting happen in the last week?
01:01 - Crowdstrike (what else?!)
01:56 - Vernon & Richard describe what happened with the Crowdstrike shenanigans
04:23 Realizing the Global Impact of the Outage
06:16 Explaining the Kernel Bug and its Effects
07:44 The Process of Getting a Kernel-Based Application
08:40 The Kernel's Response to Errors and Risks
09:29 The Significance of the Kernel in Software
10:35 Updates and News from CrowdStrike
11:11 The Importance of Software Testing and Quality
12:12 The Fallacy of Blaming Testers and Testing
12:46 - Vern reads out Rich's LinkedIn post in the immediate wake of the issue
14:29 Recognizing Process Shortcomings and Risks
15:38 - The danger of "hot takes"
16:24 Taking Ownership and Learning from Mistakes
19:15 - Common Crowdstrike Hot Takes: Thou shalt not release of Friday!
19:46 Alternative Explanations and Hot Takes
21:16 The Danger of Treating Hot Takes as Facts
22:20 The Debate Around Releasing on Fridays
23:17 Mitigating Risks and Context-Specific Decision-Making
24:42 The Need for Continuous Improvement and Learning
26:18 - Common Crowdstrike Hot Takes: Clearly this hasn't been tested!
26:37 - Common Crowdstrike Hot Takes: Obvious risk mitigation steps the should have taken
28:00 - Crowdstrike CEO called to congress
28:45 The Impact of Software Bugs and the Importance of Quality
30:54 - What might have happened if Crowdstrike didn't release a critical update?
36:22 Mitigating Risks and Turning Off Software in Critical Situations
37:59 - Updates directly from Crowdstrike
38:39 - Rich's Columbo question
43:48 - The miracle of ubiquitous software
45:42 The Response of CrowdStrike and the Potential Human Impact
46:22 - One Final Hot Take from Rich

They explore the underlying skills and activities involved in testing, such as critical thinking, analysis, communication, and understanding oracles and heuristics. They also touch on the importance of context and problem-solving in determining the appropriate testing approach. The conversation highlights the value of automation as a means to offload effort and gather information, rather than as an end in itself. In this conversation, Richard and Vernon discuss the importance of automation in testing and how it helps confirm the tester's knowledge of the system.

They also explore the concepts of glue work, quiet quitting, and quality engineering. Vernon shares his upcoming talk on setting quality engineers up for success and the challenges they face in organisations. They discuss the positioning of testers and the need for a cultural shift towards quality engineering. They invite listeners to share their thoughts and feedback on the topics discussed.

00:00 - ⚽️ Footy (1 min)
00:39 - Intro
01:54 - How will low-code and no-code automation tools impact the need for manual testers and manual test cases?
07:50 - How does Generative AI and/or Large Language Models (LLMs) change the answer?
20:39 - Issac Asmimov tangent!
21:18 - SPOILER ALERT! PLEASE SKIP IF YOU DON'T WANT TO HEAR ABOUT THE INCREDIBLE ISAAC ASIMOV STORY "PROFESSION" (I HOPE BECAUSE YOU'RE GOING TO READ IT YOURSELF!)
24:27 - SPOILER END!!!
33:07 - Vernon's talk: How We're Setting Up QEs To Fail

Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod:

• 07:50 - AI, Generative AI and Large Language Models (LLMs)
  • Useful material:
    • Microsoft course AI for Beginners
• 07:50 - Dr Tariq King
  • Tariq's LinkedIn
• 07:50 - Melissa Eaden
  • Melissa's LinkedIn
• 09:52 - The book AI-Assisted Testing by Mark Winteringham
  • Grab the book here
  • Mark's website
  • Mark's LinkedIn
• 10:53 - Knowledge work
  • Our previous discussion on Knowledge Work in Episode 1
  • A definition of knowledge work from Wikipedia
• 13:59 - Vernon's Scripting Vs Exploring workshop he delivered at the European Testing Conference (ETC)
• 14:03 - ETC (organised by Maaret Pyhäjärvi) is now sadly on hiatus
• 27:26 - Doug Hoffman and High Volume Automated Testing (HiVAT)
  • An explanation of HiVAT by Cem Kaner
  • Doug's LinkedIn
• 33:25 - The Agile Yorkshire meetup organised by Royd Brayshay
  • The Agile Yorkshire website
  • Royd's LinkedIn
• 33:59 - Cassandra H. Leung
  • Cassandra's blog
  • Cassandra's LinkedIn
• 34:22 - Tanya Reilly
  • Tanya's website
  • Tanya's Glue Work presentation which you can read or watch
  • Tanya's LinkedIn
• 37:22 - "What Is Quiet Quitting?" a BBC News article describing the phenomenon
• 38:23 - Jenna Charlton
  • Jenna's LinkedIn
  • The presentation I referred to is called: "Imperfect Agile: Lessons Learned From Embracing The Journey And Ditching The Rules". It was great and I'll see if Jenna is willing and able to share a link to it as soon as I can🙂
• 39:17 - Stuart Day
  • Stu's Quality Talks podcast that he co-hosts with Chris Henderson
  • Stu's LinkedIn
  • Chris's Linkedin
• 43:30 - Anna Baik
  • Anna's LinkedIn
  • Anna's quote that Maaret shared on LinkedIn