The Refit Podcast

SE01 E23 - Leadership Lessons from Hospitality | Kama Carter

Kyle Killian — Tue, 29 Sep 2026 13:00:00 +0100

In this conversation, Kyle Killian interviews Kama Carter, CEO of Southall, about her journey in the hospitality industry and the leadership lessons she has learned along the way. They discuss the importance of standards, continuous training, and building a strong organizational culture. Kama shares her experiences in various prestigious establishments and how they shaped her approach to leadership. The conversation emphasizes the need for effective communication, accountability, and fostering relationships within teams to create a cohesive and successful work environment. In this conversation, Kyle Killian and Kama Carter discuss the critical aspects of leadership, focusing on accountability, culture, and the challenges faced by leaders. Kama emphasizes the importance of honest feedback and addressing issues promptly to foster a positive work environment. They explore the loneliness that can accompany leadership roles and the need for patience in managing expectations. The conversation also touches on the rebuilding of the leadership team at South Hall and the pressures that come with being a CEO. Finally, they discuss the exciting future developments for South Hall and the importance of maintaining a positive mindset throughout challenges.

Takeaways

Leadership lessons often come from real-world experiences.
Kama Carter's journey in hospitality began at a young age.
Excellence in service requires attention to detail and standards.
Training should be continuous and not just a one-time event.
Culture is foundational to organizational success.
Effective communication can transform workplace culture.
Building relationships is key to a cohesive team.
Understanding different roles fosters respect among team members.
Accountability starts with leadership expectations.
Creating a positive work environment enhances employee engagement. Accountability is rooted in honesty and prompt feedback.
Leaders must address issues directly to foster a positive culture.
Feedback is essential for accountability and growth.
Loneliness is a common feeling in leadership roles.
Patience is necessary when managing expectations and improvements.
Rebuilding a leadership team requires tough conversations.
The CEO role comes with significant pressure and responsibility.
Quality and value must be prioritized in leadership roles.
Mindset plays a crucial role in overcoming challenges.
Future growth and development are essential for organizational success.

Connect with Kama Carter: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kama-carter-77a3284/

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– Kyle and The Refit Podcast team

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SE01 E22 - From Pilot to CEO: Navigating Challenges in Entrepreneurship | Bryan Currier

Kyle Killian — Thu, 24 Sep 2026 17:23:52 +0100

In this episode of the Refit Podcast, Kyle Killian interviews Bryan Currier, founder and CEO of Advantage Technologies. Bryan shares his unexpected journey from aspiring airline pilot to successful entrepreneur, detailing the challenges he faced along the way, including the impact of 9/11, economic downturns, and the COVID-19 pandemic. He emphasizes the importance of integrity, personal growth, and the need for continuous evolution as a leader. Bryan also discusses the values that guide his business decisions and the significance of building a loyal team. The conversation offers valuable insights for aspiring entrepreneurs and established leaders alike.

takeaways

Bryan's journey took an unexpected turn after 9/11.
Starting a business can come from necessity.
Integrity is crucial in leadership and decision-making.
Evolving as a leader is a continuous process.
Economic downturns can test a business's resilience.
COVID-19 challenged businesses in unprecedented ways.
Values matter when they come with a cost.
Building a loyal team is essential for success.
Entrepreneurship is often not the polished version seen online.
Personal growth is intertwined with business growth.

Connect with Bryan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bcurrier01/

I hope you enjoyed this episode! Give it a like, share, and subscribe to not miss the content coming your way weekly.
– Kyle and The Refit Podcast team

SE01 E21 - Leadership Lessons from the Outdoor Industry | Jessica Klodnicki

Kyle Killian — Tue, 15 Sep 2026 13:00:00 +0100

In this conversation, Jessica Klodnicki shares her extensive career journey from an intern at the US Olympic Bobsled and Skeleton Federation to becoming a CEO known for revitalizing brands. She discusses the importance of authenticity, the challenges brands face, and the need for effective leadership that balances performance with culture. Jessica emphasizes the significance of listening to employees, transparency in communication, and preparing for acquisitions by building a compelling business narrative. Her insights provide valuable lessons for leaders in the outdoor industry and beyond. In this conversation, Jessica shares her insights on the importance of authenticity in consumer brands, the dynamics between executive teams and boards, and the critical role of transparency in building trust. She emphasizes the need for strong leadership, effective communication, and a focus on people, product, and profit to drive success. Jessica also discusses the challenges of integrating brands and preparing for future acquisitions, while offering advice on simplifying strategy and marrying passion with profession.

Takeaways

Jessica's journey began with an internship at the US Olympic Bobsled and Skeleton Federation.
She transitioned from consumer products to sports marketing, eventually leading brands like Mizuno and Skullcandy.
Jessica became known as the go-to person for fixing brands in distress.
Key challenges for brands often include losing their roots and authenticity.
Effective leadership requires a balance of process and entrepreneurial spirit.
Listening to employees is crucial for successful change management.
Transparency and communication are vital in leadership roles.
Jessica learned valuable lessons during the acquisition process at KT Tape.
Building a strong business narrative is essential for successful acquisitions.
Performance and culture can coexist in a high-performing organization. The consumer and the customer can sniff out a lack of authenticity real quick.
Executive teams often misunderstand the board's role and value.
Board meetings can be enjoyable and productive with the right mindset.
Building trust with the board requires transparency and open communication.
Focus on people, product, and profit to drive business success.
Integration of brands requires careful consideration of shared services.
A strong leadership team is essential for future acquisitions.
Evaluating a brand's health involves assessing product and customer relationships.
Strategy should be simplified for better understanding across the organization.
Marrying passion with profession leads to a fulfilling career.

Connect with Jessica: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessicaklodnicki/

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– Kyle and The Refit Podcast team

SE01 E20 - From Poverty to Purpose: A Leader's Transformation | Jeremy Ray Davis

Kyle Killian — Tue, 08 Sep 2026 13:00:00 +0100

In this conversation, Jeremy Ray Davis shares his inspiring journey from growing up in public housing to becoming a C-suite executive in the mortgage industry. He discusses the lessons learned from his gymnastics background, the pivotal moments that shaped his leadership philosophy, and the importance of purpose in his work. Jeremy emphasizes the need for trust in communities and the impact of helping underserved populations achieve homeownership. His story reflects the challenges of overcoming poverty and the fulfillment found in meaningful leadership. In this conversation, Jeremy Ray Davis discusses the importance of finding purpose in leadership and how it can transform a business culture. He emphasizes the significance of mission and margin in a community-focused financial institution, sharing insights on maintaining conviction while navigating business challenges. Jeremy also addresses the emotional toll of not being able to help everyone and offers advice on rediscovering meaning through connection and coaching.

Takeaways

Jeremy Ray Davis grew up in public housing and became a C-suite executive.
His gymnastics background taught him about effort versus opportunity.
He started his career in the mortgage industry as a 'gopher' and worked his way up.
Overcoming poverty was a significant motivation for his career choices.
He experienced a pivotal moment of realization in his garage that changed his perspective on success.
Jeremy emphasizes the importance of purpose in leadership and work.
He believes in building trust within communities through meaningful connections.
His leadership style focuses on understanding team members' boundaries and needs.
He has helped tens of thousands of first-time homebuyers from underserved communities.
Jeremy's journey reflects the importance of personal fulfillment over financial success. Purpose drives leadership and inspires others to follow.
A strong culture is built on shared beliefs and values.
Mission and margin are complementary, not competing forces.
High retention rates are linked to a strong sense of purpose.
Leaders must communicate their mission consistently.
Helping others can lead to personal fulfillment.
Acknowledging feelings of disconnection is the first step to change.
Coaching and mentoring are vital for growth and self-discovery.
Building community connections enhances trust and engagement.
A purpose-driven business can achieve both social impact and financial success.

Connect with Jeremy: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeremyraydavis/

I hope you enjoyed this episode! Give it a like, share, and subscribe to not miss the content coming your way weekly.
– Kyle and The Refit Podcast team

SE01 E19 The Importance of Culture in Healthcare Leadership | Josh Sandler

Kyle Killian — Tue, 25 Aug 2026 13:00:00 +0100

In this conversation, Kyle Killian speaks with Josh Sandler, president of Ovation Healthcare, about his transition from military service to healthcare leadership. They discuss the challenges of scaling a team, maintaining culture during rapid growth, and the importance of data utilization and automation in healthcare. Josh shares insights on leadership strategies, the significance of team dynamics, and the need for work-life balance in a high-stress environment. The conversation highlights the evolution of leadership styles and the importance of trust and empowerment within teams. In this conversation, Josh Sandler shares insights on leadership, emphasizing the importance of trust, patience, and understanding team dynamics. He reflects on his military background and how it shaped his approach to business leadership, highlighting the need for regular communication and verification processes. Josh discusses the challenges of balancing personal and professional life, the significance of family, and offers advice for those transitioning from military to business. He also outlines future goals for his organization in the healthcare sector, focusing on innovation and community support.

takeaways

Josh Sandler emphasizes the importance of understanding different backgrounds in leadership.
The transition from military to healthcare leadership can be challenging but rewarding.
Maintaining team culture is crucial during periods of rapid growth.
Data utilization is key to improving efficiency in healthcare operations.
Empowerment and trust are essential for effective leadership.
Growth can create stress, but it also presents opportunities.
Building a strong team dynamic is vital for success.
Leaders must adapt their styles as they progress in their careers.
Work-life balance is important for team morale and productivity.
Celebrating achievements helps maintain motivation and focus. Building trust and patience is crucial for effective leadership.
High-performing individuals often struggle with delegation and patience.
Regular check-ins can help identify team bottlenecks and issues.
Hiring for fit is essential for team cohesion and success.
Understanding team dynamics is key to effective leadership.
One-on-one conversations foster deeper connections and insights.
Military discipline translates well into business leadership.
Transitioning from military to business requires adaptability and courage.
Work-life balance is vital for personal well-being and relationships.
Family is a primary motivation for career choices and efforts.

Connect with Josh Sandler: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sandlerjosh/

I hope you enjoyed this episode! Give it a like, share, and subscribe to not miss the content coming your way weekly.
– Kyle and The Refit Podcast team

SE01 E18 The Art of Delegation in Leadership | James Franz

Kyle Killian — Tue, 04 Aug 2026 13:00:00 +0100

In this conversation, James Franz, COO & President At UltiMaker, shares insights from his extensive career in operations and leadership. He discusses the importance of execution, planning, and accountability in business, especially during seasonal peaks. Jim reflects on his transition to the C-suite, emphasizing the need for effective delegation and trust within teams. He also addresses the challenges of navigating mergers, integrating systems, and managing cultural differences. Throughout the discussion, Jim highlights the significance of communication and building coalitions to overcome resistance to change. In this conversation, Kyle Killian and James Franz discuss the complexities of leadership during significant organizational changes, including mergers and manufacturing transitions. They explore the importance of building trust, managing team dynamics, and navigating cultural differences in a global context. Jim shares his experiences with decision-making, staff reductions, and the challenges of leading through uncertainty, emphasizing the need for clear communication and collaborative efforts to foster resilience and adaptability within teams.

Takeaways

James Franz is the COO & President At UltiMaker , specializing in 3D printing.
His career spans over 30 years in operations and supply chain management.
Execution and planning are critical, especially in seasonal businesses.
Transitioning to the C-suite involves learning to delegate effectively.
Trust is essential for successful delegation and team dynamics.
Accountability is key to high-performing teams.
Mergers require careful integration of systems and cultures.
Communication is vital during organizational changes.
Resistance to change can stem from past experiences with systems.
Building coalitions and over-communicating helps in managing change. You're not gonna get everybody to agree with your decision.
Building trust is crucial during mergers and acquisitions.
Effective communication can bridge gaps in understanding.
Leadership is about navigating through difficult decisions.
Transitioning to new roles requires adaptability and learning.
Managing staff reductions is a sensitive leadership challenge.
Team resilience is built through shared experiences.
Cultural differences can impact speed and efficiency in global teams.
Face-to-face interactions enhance collaboration and understanding.
Breaking down projects into smaller chunks can lead to success.

Connect with James - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamesfranz/?skipRedirect=true

I hope you enjoyed this episode! Give it a like, share, and subscribe to not miss the content coming your way weekly.
– Kyle and The Refit Podcast team

SE01 E17 From Military to Civilian: Leadership Lessons | Sean Papso

Kyle Killian — Tue, 28 Jul 2026 13:00:00 +0100

In this conversation, Sean Papso shares his journey from military leadership to the civilian workforce, discussing the challenges and lessons learned along the way. He emphasizes the importance of understanding team dynamics, the role of finance in business, and the impact of private equity on government contracting. Sean also reflects on the difficult decisions made during sequestration and the significance of engagement and communication in leadership. The discussion concludes with an analogy comparing the M&A process to marriage, highlighting the complexities involved. In this conversation, Sean Papso shares his experiences navigating the M&A process, managing emotions during transitions, and the importance of leadership in post-acquisition growth. He emphasizes the need for transparency in communication and maintaining a mission-focused approach. Sean also provides valuable advice for veterans transitioning into civilian roles, highlighting the importance of adaptability and understanding workplace dynamics.

Takeaways

Leadership in the military is structured but differs in civilian life.
Understanding team dynamics is crucial for effective leadership.
Different roles require different motivational strategies.
Finance plays a critical role in business operations.
Private equity can provide valuable resources and opportunities.
Sequestration forced difficult workforce decisions.
Decision-making involves considering the impact on individuals.
Engagement with employees is essential for effective leadership.
Communication is key to understanding team needs.
The M&A process can be likened to a marriage, full of challenges. Getting to be at the table during the M&A process is a unique experience.
The M&A process can be exciting but also uncomfortable during due diligence.
Emotions can significantly affect execution during transitions.
Maintaining employee morale is crucial during uncertain times.
Transparent communication helps squash rumor mills post-acquisition.
Leadership must balance workforce concerns with growth initiatives.
The importance of staying mission-focused in a corporate environment.
Veterans transitioning to civilian roles should be adaptable and flexible.
Understanding the day-to-day responsibilities of a new role is essential.
It's okay to change companies if the fit isn't right.

Connect with Sean - https://www.linkedin.com/in/seanpapso/

I hope you enjoyed this episode! Give it a like, share, and subscribe to not miss the content coming your way weekly.
– Kyle and The Refit Podcast team

SE01 E16 Future Aspirations in the Gig Economy: A New Perspective | Tom Gissler

Kyle Killian — Tue, 21 Jul 2026 13:00:00 +0100

In this episode of the Refit Podcast, Kyle Killian speaks with Tom Gissler, Chief Executive Officer of Rolling Suds, about his unique journey in leadership and franchising. Tom shares insights on navigating career challenges, the importance of culture in leadership, and the dynamics of hiring for fit. He emphasizes the human element in business and discusses the challenges of scaling founder-led businesses. The conversation highlights the need for accountability and the delicate balance of leadership, especially when transitioning from a founder's vision to a structured operation. In this conversation, Tom Gissler shares his insights on leadership, the challenges of isolation, and the sacrifices made for work. He reflects on the importance of balancing professional responsibilities with personal life, emphasizing the need for strong communication and boundaries in leadership roles. Tom also discusses his future aspirations in the evolving gig economy and offers valuable lessons for new leaders stepping into established organizations.

Takeaways

Tom Gissler emphasizes the importance of learning from mistakes in leadership.
Building consensus is crucial for effective leadership and decision-making.
Franchising provides a pathway for entrepreneurship with support and lower barriers.
The human element in business is essential for navigating challenges and building culture.
Hiring should focus on both skill set and cultural fit to ensure long-term success.
Accountability is a key component of a winning team and culture.
Scaling a founder-led business requires understanding the existing dynamics and staff relationships.
Leaders must be willing to let go and trust their teams to drive the business forward.
The balance between financial goals and human considerations is critical in business.
Navigating the complexities of leadership involves managing expectations and relationships. Leadership requires navigating changes and managing founder dynamics.
Isolation is a significant cost of leadership roles.
Personal relationships can complicate accountability in the workplace.
Sacrifices for work can lead to regret and missed family moments.
Prioritizing family and personal life is essential for overall well-being.
The gig economy is changing traditional career paths and expectations.
Good communication and clear boundaries are vital for effective leadership.
Empathy and servant leadership can lead to better organizational outcomes.
Investing in family culture is as important as professional culture.
Future leadership roles may involve more flexible, gig-based opportunities.

Connect with Tom Gissler: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tom-gissler-5a05a62b/

I hope you enjoyed this episode! Give it a like, share, and subscribe to not miss the content coming your way weekly.
– Kyle and The Refit Podcast team

SE01 E15 Balancing Legacy and Change in Business | Joseph Pehanick

Kyle Killian — Tue, 14 Jul 2026 13:00:00 +0100

In this conversation, Kyle Killian interviews Joseph Pehanick, the president and Chief Executive Officer of East Bay Tire Company, discussing his journey through the family business, leadership challenges, and the impact of COVID-19 on operations. Joe shares insights on earning trust, the importance of culture, and the balance between legacy and change in a family-owned business. He reflects on the evolution of his leadership style, the significance of accountability, and the principles that guide decision-making during crises. In this conversation, Joseph Pehanick shares insights on leadership, personal struggles, and the importance of purpose in work. He discusses the emotional challenges faced by employees during tough times and how work can serve as an outlet. Joseph emphasizes the need for a long-term strategy in business and the impact of the book 'Extreme Ownership' on his leadership style. He reflects on his personal growth through education and the future vision for East Bay Tire, focusing on diversification and innovation. The conversation concludes with advice for aspiring leaders and the importance of simplicity in life.

Takeaways

Earning trust in a family business requires consistent effort.
Leadership is about serving the team, not just personal goals.
Culture drives performance and team dynamics.
Navigating change while respecting legacy is crucial.
Crisis management reveals the true character of a leader.
Accountability within teams fosters a high-performance environment.
Personal understanding of team members is vital during tough times.
Making tough decisions often requires a clear set of principles.
The best leaders adapt their mindset continuously.
Communication is key to maintaining team morale and performance. Work can be an emotional outlet for many.
Everyone deserves a sense of purpose in their work.
Leadership is about understanding personal struggles.
Building a long-term strategy is essential for success.
Extreme Ownership is crucial for effective leadership.
Education can provide valuable perspectives and growth.
Future business initiatives should focus on diversification.
Aspiring leaders should expect challenges and be prepared to be humbled.
Simplicity is key in both leadership and personal life.
Connecting with others and building relationships is vital.

Connect with Joseph - https://www.linkedin.com/in/joepehanick/

I hope you enjoyed this episode! Give it a like, share, and subscribe to not miss the content coming your way weekly.

– Kyle and The Refit Podcast team

SE01 E14 Finding Fulfilment Beyond Financial Success | Jonny Price

Kyle Killian — Tue, 07 Jul 2026 13:00:00 +0100

In this conversation, Jonny Price, President, Banter of WeFunder, shares his journey from management consulting to the nonprofit sector and eventually to his current role at WeFunder. He discusses the challenges and rewards of transitioning to nonprofit work, the importance of personal fulfillment over financial gain, and the lessons learned from adversity. Jonny reflects on the strengths and limitations of the nonprofit model and how WeFunder addresses these challenges. He emphasizes the significance of optimism and support from loved ones during difficult times. In this conversation, Jonny from WeFunder discusses the mission of the company to defend capitalism by making investment opportunities accessible to a broader audience. He explains the evolution of investment laws, the challenges faced in capital raising, and the misconceptions founders have about the timing and approach to raising capital. Jonny emphasizes the importance of retail investor participation and shares personal reflections on life and career choices.

Takeaways

Jonny Price is the President of WeFunder, a crowdfunding platform.
He transitioned from management consulting to nonprofit work at Kiva.
The decision to join Kiva involved a significant pay cut.
Jonny's experience in Zambia influenced his career choices.
He values personal fulfillment over financial gain.
The nonprofit sector faces challenges in attracting talent due to compensation.
Jonny's wife has supported him through career transitions.
He believes in the importance of optimism during tough times.
Lessons from personal experiences shape his perspective on life.
Adversity can lead to positive outcomes in both personal and professional life. WeFunder operates as a Public Benefit Corporation, prioritizing mission over shareholder value.
Capitalism needs adjustments to benefit a larger portion of the population.
The Securities Act of the 1930s limited investment opportunities to accredited investors.
The Jobs Act of 2012 allowed non-accredited investors to participate in startup funding.
Founders often seek capital too early instead of focusing on product-market fit.
Investor psychology plays a crucial role in fundraising success.
Raising capital from a position of strength is more effective.
Retail investors should have a share in the wealth created by startups.
Personal reflections on family time and career focus are important.
The future of investing includes more community involvement in funding.

Connect with Jonny : https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonnyprice/

I hope you enjoyed this episode! Give it a like, share, and subscribe to not miss the content coming your way weekly.
– Kyle and The Refit Podcast team

SE01 E13 From Road Support to Leadership: Dana’s Insights | Dana McFletcher-Hubbard

Kyle Killian — Tue, 28 Apr 2026 13:00:00 +0100

In this episode of the Refit podcast, Kyle Killian interviews Dana McFletcher-Hubbard, Chief Revenue Officer of TTN Fleet Solutions. Dana shares her journey in the trucking industry, starting from her early days in emergency road service to her current leadership role. She discusses the influence of her family, particularly her grandparents, on her values of service and empathy. Dana recounts the challenges she faced when her previous company closed unexpectedly and how her faith and commitment to her team guided her through the transition to TTN. Throughout the conversation, she emphasizes the importance of understanding diverse perspectives and supporting others in their professional growth. In this conversation, Kyle Killian and Dana McFletcher-Hubbard discuss the critical role of honest feedback in leadership, the challenges faced during crises, and the necessary adaptations in leadership styles for remote work environments. They emphasize the importance of maintaining communication, building credibility, and creating a supportive culture to ensure employee engagement and retention. In this conversation, Dana McFletcher-Hubbard shares her insights on leadership, emphasizing the importance of quality over quantity in business operations, the necessity of empathy in leadership, and the challenges faced during organizational changes. She reflects on her personal growth and the lessons learned throughout her career, advocating for a hands-on approach to leadership and the importance of maintaining integrity and transparency in business practices.

Takeaways

Dana's journey began in emergency road service during college.
Her family background instilled values of service and empathy.
She emphasizes the importance of understanding diverse perspectives.
Dana's experience in sales and collections shaped her resilience.
The closure of her previous company was unexpected and challenging.
She prioritized her team's well-being during the transition.
Dana's faith played a crucial role in her coping strategy.
She recognized the need for change in her new role at TTN.
Her leadership style is influenced by her upbringing and experiences.
Dana believes in supporting others in their professional growth.
Honesty in feedback is crucial for leadership effectiveness.
Softening messages can lead to long-term issues in business.
Leaders must prioritize the well-being of their employees.
High turnover can result from poor leadership practices.
Building credibility is essential for effective communication.
Navigating crises requires adaptability and quick decision-making.
Remote work presents unique challenges for team dynamics.
Maintaining communication is key in a virtual environment.
Leadership styles must evolve with changing work conditions.
Creating a supportive culture is vital for employee retention.
It's important to connect the dots on business goals.
Quality should take precedence over quantity in operations.
Leadership decisions should prioritize experience and empathy.
Maintaining integrity and transparency is crucial in business.
Adapting to change requires a hands-on approach from leaders.
Never dim your light; authenticity is key.
Continuous learning is essential in a rapidly changing environment.
Empathy is vital in understanding the full circumstances of business operations.
Building relationships and trust is critical during tough times.
Strategic alliances can enhance business growth and opportunities.

Connect with Dana: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dana-mcfletcher-hubbard-9708135/

I hope you enjoyed this episode! Give it a like, share, and subscribe to not miss the content coming your way weekly.
– Kyle and The Refit Podcast team

SE01 E12 Leadership Lessons from the Military to the Startup World | Robert Fabian

Kyle Killian — Tue, 21 Apr 2026 13:00:00 +0100

In this episode of the Refit Podcast, Kyle Killian interviews Robert Fabian, COO of Vaya Space, who discusses the development of next-generation hybrid rocket engines for defense and space launch. Robert shares insights from his military background and how it informs his leadership style in a startup environment. He emphasizes the importance of safety culture, the challenges of transitioning from individual contributor to leader, and the critical nature of evaluating leadership fit within the organization as it scales. In this conversation, Robert Fabian discusses the evolution of his leadership style, emphasizing the importance of safety management, documentation, and fostering a collaborative work environment. He shares insights on ethical fundraising strategies for his company, Vaya Space, and reflects on the challenges of leadership in high-stakes environments. Additionally, he offers valuable advice for senior military officers transitioning to civilian life, highlighting the significance of knowing one's goals and leveraging professional networks.

Takeaways

Vaya Space is developing new hybrid rocket engines for commercial and defense applications.
The transition to defense was driven by increasing demand signals from global conflicts.
Robert's military experience shapes his leadership approach in a startup environment.
Safety culture is paramount in the development of rocket engines.
Mentoring in leadership requires effort from both mentor and mentee.
Making tough decisions about team dynamics is essential for long-term success.
Cultural fit is a critical component of the hiring process.
Scaling leadership requires letting go of technical details.
Every new hire impacts the organization's culture and performance.
Robert emphasizes the importance of flexibility in work hours for team collaboration.
Robert emphasizes the need for accountability without punishment in safety management.
Documentation and discipline are crucial for young engineers to understand.
Cultural reinforcement is essential for safety and risk elimination.
Collaboration and spontaneous discussions enhance creativity and problem-solving.
Ethical fundraising allows for gradual growth and proof of concept.
Leadership in startups involves managing multiple responsibilities and risks.
Support from family is vital during challenging entrepreneurial times.
Transitioning military leaders should know their goals and leverage their networks.
Asking for help is important in navigating career transitions.
Creating a culture where all ideas are valued fosters innovation.

To connect with Robert - https://www.linkedin.com/in/robfabian/

I hope you enjoyed this episode! Give it a like, share, and subscribe to not miss the content coming your way weekly.
– Kyle and The Refit Podcast team

SE01 E11 The Journey of Innovation in Defense Technology | Joshua Knight

Kyle Killian — Tue, 14 Apr 2026 13:00:00 +0100

In this conversation, Kyle Killian interviews Joshua Knight, co-founder and COO of Integer, a company focused on innovation in maritime defense technology. They discuss Knight's background, the challenges of entrepreneurship, the importance of family support, and the dynamics of scaling a business in a traditional industry. The conversation highlights the need for innovation in maritime defense, the risks associated with starting a business, and the critical role of communication and financial management in navigating challenges. In this conversation, Joshua Knight discusses the importance of breaking down long-term visions into actionable goals, especially as organizations grow. He emphasizes the challenges of communication and leadership in larger teams, the complexities of product development in the defense sector, and the significance of private equity partnerships. Knight also reflects on the necessity of maintaining personal relationships while pursuing business goals, highlighting the balance between professional ambitions and personal commitments.

Takeaways

Joshua Knight's passion for STEM and maritime technology drives his work.
The journey to launching Integer began years before its official start.
Understanding the Navy's contracting process was crucial for Integer's success.
Family support played a significant role in Knight's entrepreneurial journey.
Bootstrapping required careful cash management and prioritization of expenses.
External market changes can introduce significant uncertainty for startups.
Effective communication is essential as a business scales.
Knight emphasizes the importance of understanding risks and having backup plans.
The entrepreneurial operating system helped Integer navigate challenges.
Maintaining a focus on people is vital for business sustainability. Vision is long-term but needs to be broken down into actionable goals.
Communication becomes more complex as organizations grow.
The Valley of Death represents the challenges in defense innovation.
Private equity can provide necessary resources but requires cultural alignment.
Building relationships is crucial for effective leadership.
Intentionality in communication is key to avoid misunderstandings.
Product development requires rigorous testing and validation.
Investing in relationships should be a disciplined practice.
Leadership is more about relationships than just skills.
Balancing business goals with personal relationships is essential.

To connect with Joshua - https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-knight-69aa0b38/

I hope you enjoyed this episode! Give it a like, share, and subscribe to not miss the content coming your way weekly.
– Kyle and The Refit Podcast team

SE01 E10 Leading Change in Legacy Organizations | Brendan O'Donnell

Kyle Killian — Tue, 24 Mar 2026 13:00:00 +0000

In this conversation, Kyle Killian speaks with Brendan O'Donnell, CEO of Safe Food Alliance, about the challenges of leading change in a legacy organization. Brendan shares his background in agriculture and technology, the importance of trust and credibility in food safety, and the complexities of modernizing processes while managing a long-standing workforce. The discussion highlights the significance of effective communication, the role of leadership in fostering a shared vision, and the hurdles of technology adoption and employee engagement in a traditional setting.

Takeaways:

Brendan O'Donnell emphasizes the importance of trust and credibility in legacy organizations.
Modernization efforts require a deep understanding of existing processes and personnel.
Technology adoption can be met with resistance, especially in long-standing organizations.
Effective communication of the vision is crucial for buy-in from employees.
Data-driven decisions can significantly impact the future of the organization.
The transition to new technology often requires more time than initially anticipated.
People management is a significant challenge for new leaders in legacy organizations.
Training and standardization are key to successful implementation of new systems.
Leadership must address employee concerns about job security during transitions.
Creating a culture of openness and transparency is essential for successful change management.

To connect with Brendan O'Donnell - https://www.linkedin.com/in/brendanmodonnell/

I hope you enjoyed this episode! Give it a like, share, and subscribe to not miss the content coming your way weekly.
– Kyle and The Refit Podcast team

SE01 E09 From Soldier to Leader: A Journey | Sean Patton

Kyle Killian — Tue, 17 Mar 2026 13:00:00 +0000

In this conversation, Kyle Killian and Sean Patton explore the complexities of leadership, identity, and the transition from military to civilian life. Sean shares his journey from a challenging upbringing to becoming a West Point graduate and Green Beret commander. They discuss the impact of 9/11 on military aspirations, the struggles of maintaining identity in high-pressure environments, and the lessons learned from Ranger School and Special Forces. Sean emphasizes the importance of simplicity in leadership, the need for a noble purpose, and the significance of community in overcoming personal crises. He offers valuable advice for veterans facing challenges in their transition to civilian life.

Takeaways

Leadership is about identity and transformation.
Simplicity in leadership leads to better outcomes.
The military environment provides a safety net for growth.
Self-discipline is about valuing your time on earth.
Community is essential for personal growth and recovery.
Finding a noble purpose can drive motivation.
Transitioning from military to business involves learning from failures.
It's important to redefine your identity after leaving the military.
Embrace the discomfort of change for personal growth.
You have the power to choose how you respond to challenges.

To connect with Sean Patton - https://www.linkedin.com/in/seanpattonpresents/

I hope you enjoyed this episode! Give it a like, share, and subscribe to not miss the content coming your way weekly.
– Kyle and The Refit Podcast team

SE01 E08 Overcoming Challenges: Lessons from Lance Roberts

Kyle Killian — Tue, 10 Mar 2026 13:00:00 +0000

In this conversation, Lance Roberts shares his journey from a challenging childhood marked by dyslexia to becoming a successful leader in the transportation logistics industry. He discusses his early entrepreneurial spirit, the humbling experience of competing with Tiger Woods, and his transition from golf to rodeo. A pivotal moment in his life was quitting alcohol, which led to newfound confidence and resilience. Lance emphasizes the importance of learning every role in business and investing in people, while also highlighting how faith has played a crucial role in his personal and professional growth. In this conversation, Lance D. Roberts shares his journey through the challenges of internal theft, transitioning from operations to sales, and the impact of company culture on leadership. He discusses the personal toll of embezzlement and the importance of faith in navigating difficult times. Lance emphasizes the need for character in leadership and the balance between technology and human touch in business. He reflects on the lessons learned from adversity and the significance of maintaining integrity and relationships in the industry.

Takeaways

Lance Roberts has over 35 years in transportation logistics.
His entrepreneurial spirit began in childhood, selling flowers and M&Ms.
Dyslexia shaped his problem-solving skills and mental fortitude.
A humbling experience with Tiger Woods taught him about the gap between good and great.
Transitioning from golf to rodeo ignited a new passion.
Quitting alcohol in 1996 marked a significant turning point in his life.
Building confidence came from learning to adapt and overcome challenges.
Rodeo taught him resilience and the importance of perseverance.
Faith became a source of strength in overcoming life's challenges.
Investing in people is crucial for business success. Internal theft can have severe consequences for a company.
Transitioning from operations to sales requires a different mindset.
Leaders must recognize the cost of staying in a toxic culture.
Embezzlement can lead to difficult decisions and personal challenges.
Finding peace in faith can help during tough times.
Consulting can be a way to give back after personal setbacks.
Maintaining human connection is crucial in a technology-driven world.
Non-negotiables in leadership include integrity and faith.
Adversity prepares individuals for greater challenges ahead.
Building relationships is key to long-term success.

Connect with Lance Roberts on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lancedrobertsmba/

I hope you enjoyed this episode! Give it a like, share, and subscribe to not miss the content coming your way weekly.
– Kyle and The Refit Podcast team

SE01 E07 From Baseball to Business: Hard Lessons in Leadership | Craig J Zezima

Kyle Killian — Tue, 03 Mar 2026 13:00:00 +0000

In this episode of the Refit podcast, host Kyle Killian engages in a deep conversation with Craig J Zezima, CEO of Resolux America, about the realities of leadership in high-pressure environments. Craig shares his journey from a professional baseball player to a seasoned leader in the packaging industry, emphasizing the importance of mentorship, ethical decision-making, and the cost of leadership during periods of growth. He reflects on the challenges of making tough decisions that prioritize integrity over short-term gains, illustrating how these experiences shape his leadership philosophy today.

Craig discusses the significance of building trust within teams and the necessity of developing relationships to foster a culture of accountability and excellence. He highlights the importance of loving and trusting people, as well as the need for a clear strategy that aligns with the organization's goals. As they explore the complexities of leadership, Craig emphasizes that true leadership is about serving others and maintaining a consistent standard of integrity, regardless of the circumstances. This conversation offers valuable insights for anyone navigating the challenges of leadership in today's fast-paced business landscape.

Takeaways

"You have to make decisions that you feel like, you know what? I'm not sure here, but..."
"Stop stopping yourself from being successful because it looks hard."
"You're only as good as the people that are around you."
"If you can develop your people and love your customer, you're more than a quarter of the way there."
"The standard is the standard, and there's no deviation from that."
"It's really about the team; it's not about you."
"Great leadership looks like humility and consistency, even when nobody's watching."
"You have to have the ability to master and stack things of success."
"Normal is good, but normal is average."
"Love unconditionally; you're going to get hurt, but it's okay."

Connect with Craig J Zezima on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/craig-j-zezima-a4a4b2134/

I hope you enjoyed this episode! Give it a like, share, and subscribe to not miss the content coming your way weekly.
– Kyle and The Refit Podcast team

SE01 E06 Had to Fire My Best Friend to Save the Company | Chris Brewer.

Kyle Killian — Tue, 24 Feb 2026 13:00:00 +0000

In this episode of the Refit podcast, Kyle Killian speaks with Chris Brewer, the founder of River City Logistics, about the real challenges of leadership and entrepreneurship. Chris shares his journey from starting a logistics company to making tough decisions, including firing a close friend for the greater good of the organization. He discusses the importance of listening to team dynamics, the emotional costs of leadership, and the lessons learned from risky decisions. The conversation also touches on the significance of company culture, the impact of key hires, and the challenges of navigating personal and professional growth in a fast-paced business environment.

Chris founded River City Logistics in 2018, bringing a diverse background in transportation to the company. A graduate from Clarke University in 2013. Chris has held key roles in the industry including Fleet Manager, West Coast Operations Manager, and Sales Executive before starting RCL. Under his leadership, River City Logistics has grown into one of the most trusted transportation partners in the country, offering dedicated transportation solutions, warehousing and distribution and domestic truckload brokerage capacity. His leadership is shaped by hands-on experience across multiple facets of logistics.

Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-brewer-88710a52/

Chris Brewer | President/CEO
River City Logistics | rclogistics.com
O: 563-227-8987 | C: 563-663-5645
Dubuque, IA

I hope you enjoyed this episode! Give it a like, share, and subscribe to not miss the content coming your way weekly.
– Kyle and The Refit Podcast team

SE01 E05 Building an American Brand Against All Odds | Dean Wegner

Kyle Killian — Tue, 17 Feb 2026 13:00:00 +0000

Dean Wegner didn't set out to revolutionize American manufacturing. He set out to solve a problem most people don't even know exists: only 3% of apparel sold in America is actually made here. As a West Point graduate, Army Ranger, helicopter pilot, and former Fortune 500 executive at Procter & Gamble and Mars, Dean launched Authentically American in 2017 with a mission that seemed impossible - build a profitable apparel brand using only American manufacturing while staying price competitive with overseas production.

This conversation digs into the real cost of betting on principles over profit margins. Dean shares the brutal lesson of losing 60% of revenue overnight during a government contract freeze, the cashflow crisis that taught him what Fortune 500 life never could, and why the hardest part wasn't building the business - it was accepting that most people simply don't care where their clothes are made.

You'll hear how Dean navigated the transition from institutional comfort to entrepreneurial chaos, why Ranger School turned out to be better preparation than his MBA, and the strategic pivot that changed everything: narrowing focus to serve veteran-owned businesses and veteran-focused charities instead of trying to convert the mass market. Dean also reveals why national TV appearances don't automatically translate to B2B sales, the decision to build a sales team after years of earned media, and how implementing EOS helped him stay true to his strengths as a visionary while building execution capability around him.
This is about what it takes to stay aligned when growth pressures test your values, why passion alone isn't enough without the right business model, and how manufacturing 100% in America across 11 states isn't just possible - it's profitable when you stop trying to be everything to everyone.
Key insights on leading through cashflow crunches, the power of investing in relationships before you need them, why your ranger buddy matters just as much in business as it does in combat, and what most people get wrong about building a brand from scratch.

Dean Wegner
Founder & CEO, Authentically American
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/deanwegner93/
Website: https://www.authenticallyamerican.us/

SE01 E04 “The Saturday Text That Changed Everything” | Dan Swiniarski

Kyle Killian — Thu, 12 Feb 2026 13:00:00 +0000

When Dan Swiniarski got a Saturday morning text from the owner of Wright Creative Branding and Labels, the company was bleeding cash. The 63-year-old family business had gone from a healthy 3-to-1 revenue-to-debt ratio to being over a million dollars in the red just halfway through the fiscal year. The offer was simple: become president and COO. Dan's response was equally direct: get rid of your brother, and tell me what you really want.

In this raw and honest conversation, Dan breaks down the tough decisions that transformed Wright from financial crisis to cash-flow positive in just 14 months. As a US Marine Corps veteran and entrepreneur who previously built a business from zero to 100 million in sales, Dan didn't shy away from the hard calls: consolidating facilities, letting go of embedded employees, and investing in sales talent while cutting costs. But the real story isn't just about the numbers. It's about building trust before the crisis hits, creating a culture where people know exactly where they stand, and understanding that in manufacturing, sales and operations aren't enemies - they're one team fighting the same battle.

Dan shares the moment the former CEO called him back 20 minutes after being asked to step aside, the counterintuitive decision to hire aggressively during a cash crunch, and why he brought his manufacturing team into sales training. He also opens up about his work with Fairways for Warriors, a top-rated charity using golf to help combat veterans struggling with the invisible wounds of war. This is leadership without the theory - just the real decisions that kept Dan up at night and the principles that got Wright back on track.

What hiring someone from within a family business really means for their ability to make bold decisions
Why Dan shuts down facilities that have been losing money for years on day one and doesn't look back
The two non-negotiables Dan gave the owner before accepting the president role
How bringing operations leaders into sales training eliminated the toxic us-versus-them culture
Why Dan tells new sales hires exactly how much they'll cost him in six months and what he expects in return
The difference between sales training that fixes today and sales development that builds tomorrow
What it means to have empathy as a closer and why rejection is just part of the job
How a 63-year-old family legacy can be your greatest asset and your biggest Achilles heel
Why Dan would rather hire someone he trusts than someone who's individually great at their discipline
What 22 veterans a day deciding to end their lives has to do with getting people off the couch and onto the golf course

Dan Swiniarski is President & COO of Wright Creative Branding & Labels, where he drives transformational growth, strategic innovation, and AI-enabled sales and operations across the brand’s labeling and packaging solutions. With a career built on expanding market footprint, optimizing performance, and elevating customer experience, Dan blends deep industry expertise with a forward-thinking approach that helps brands stand out in competitive markets. A Marine Corps veteran and avid golfer based in Arizona, he champions leadership, disciplined execution, and the smart use of technology to unlock business value and long-term results. Fairways for warriors:https://www.fairwaysforwarriors.org/ Dan's linked in:https://www.linkedin.com/in/danswiniarski/. website: https://www.wrightlabels.com/

Learn more about Fairways for Warriors and how you can support combat veterans at https://www.fairwaysforwarriors.org/

Connect with Dan Swiniarski on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danswiniarski/

I hope you enjoyed this episode! Give it a like, share, and subscribe to not miss the content coming your way weekly.
– Kyle and The Refit Podcast team

SE01 E03 What Nobody Tells You About Holding the Line | Jeremy Barker

Kyle Killian — Tue, 10 Feb 2026 13:00:00 +0000

Jeremy Barker made his first $20 million by age 21 supplying Home Depot with storage buildings. Then he lost it all, went bankrupt, and spent a year living in his car. Most people would call that failure. Jeremy calls it his competitive advantage. Today he's the founder and CEO of Murphy Door, the number one hidden door brand in America, an eight-figure manufacturing business with triple-digit growth and over a billion social views in the past year.
This conversation goes deep on the decisions that separate businesses that scale from businesses that collapse. Jeremy breaks down why he stayed at the firehouse making $15.62 an hour even when Murphy Door was trending toward $5 million, why taking money out too early is like stealing milk from your own baby, and how the discipline of the fire service taught him everything Fortune 500 companies couldn't about span of control, chain of command, and knowing when to let go.
You'll hear about the UPS freight crisis in 2016 that nearly killed the business, how Jeremy found a warehouse in Lexington Kentucky sitting at a steakhouse after every other option fell through, and why asking for help is one of the most powerful words in business even though pride makes it the hardest to say. Jeremy also unpacks the September 2024 algorithm change and cyberattacks that wiped out 90 days of momentum, dropping growth from 67 percent to flat in a single month, and what the forensic audit revealed about taking your eye off the ball.
This is about the real constraints at scale, why vanity metrics like social views don't pay bills unless they convert, and how Jeremy keeps revenue per employee tight while managing over 100 people across multiple manufacturing facilities. He shares the hard call he had to make when his production manager told him either trust me with bigger decisions or you don't need me, why being liked as a leader will limit your impact, and what he'd tell his 21-year-old self about burning bridges with people who could have saved him in 13 seconds.
No fluff, no highlight reel. Just the unfiltered truth about what it takes to hold the line when the money's gone, the pressure's real, and failure was the most likely outcome.

Ready to build your Batcave or just see what's possible when you refuse to quit? Check out Murphy Door and follow Jeremy's journey.

Jeremy Barker, Founder & CEO, Murphy Door
Instagram: @jbarker482
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeremy-barker-02007648/
Podcast: 90 Proof Wisdom
Website: https://murphydoor.com/

I hope you enjoyed this episode! Give it a like, share, and subscribe to not miss the content coming your way weekly.
– Kyle and The Refit Podcast team

SE01 E02 How a Virtual-First CEO Turned Culture Into a Competitive Advantage | With Michael Giaramita

Kyle Killian — Tue, 03 Feb 2026 13:00:00 +0000

When Michael Giaramita founded Group PMX in 2010, he made two unconventional bets. First, the company would be entirely virtual from day one, years before remote work became mainstream. Second, he would compete not by undercutting competitors but by partnering with them. At pre-bid construction meetings, he'd tell contractors, "We don't want to compete with you, we want to partner with you." They looked at him like he had two heads. Today, Group PMX has been named by Engineering News-Record as one of New York's top contractors for six consecutive years, managing over a thousand projects across buildings, infrastructure, and energy markets.

In this conversation, Michael breaks down the pivotal moments that shaped his leadership philosophy over 50 years in the construction industry. From realizing that chasing too much sub work was diluting his talent pool, to the project that taught him workers in the field are the first indicator of success, to why he plans to replace himself outside of New York to drive geographic expansion. He shares why he hates reporting, why counting workers daily matters more than monthly reports, and how one incentive got four contractors to shift traffic on the same day, saving a million dollars and eliminating dangerous S-curves on a 12-mile highway project.

Key Takeaways:
Why being 50 percent prime and 50 percent subcontractor work is the talent threshold that makes or breaks your competitive edge
The ceiling every growing company hits and how Michael has broken through it 5 to 10 times in his career
What happened when Michael told a client they needed to start counting workers in the field instead of waiting for monthly reports
How Group PMX stayed entirely virtual for 16 years and built culture through quarterly events and strict hiring standards
Why Michael plans to replace himself outside of New York rather than in his home market
The moment Michael walked into the International Monetary Fund project and realized the toxic culture could be turned around in two years
What it means to take data and turn it into something actionable instead of just reporting what happened
Why strategic thinking is the weakest core skill across the industry and how to get people thinking outside the box
The project in Houston where contractors started doing each other's work because the incentives aligned around one shared milestone
Why going to the high road takes longer but earns trust that sustains you through crisis

Connect with Michael Giaramita on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelgiaramita/
Learn more about Group PMX: https://www.grouppmx.com/
Get Michael's book, It's All About Your Team: https://www.amazon.com/Its-All-About-Your-Team/dp/1637352670

I hope you enjoyed this episode! Give it a like, share, and subscribe to not miss the content coming your way weekly.

– Kyle and The Refit Podcast team

Visit the Kohora website here: https://www.kohorainc.com/

SE01 E01 From COO to CEO: Why the Job Changes Completely at the Top | With Don Whetro

Kyle Killian — Tue, 20 Jan 2026 13:00:00 +0000

In the first episode of The Refit Podcast, host Kyle Killian sits down with Don Whetro, Chief Executive Officer of AR Homes and AR Franchising, Inc., for an unfiltered conversation about what leadership really looks like when the playbook stops working.

With more than two decades in homebuilding and franchising, Don shares his unexpected journey from operations to the CEO seat and the realities of leading a 70+ year legacy organization through modernization, market disruption, and organizational change. From identifying leadership atrophy to making difficult people decisions, Don breaks down what it takes to move a business forward without losing its core identity.

This episode dives deep into the impact of COVID-19 on the homebuilding industry, the operational bottlenecks that stalled growth, and the controversial but necessary decision to outsource critical functions to keep the business moving. Don also opens up about the loneliness of leadership, the importance of trust and credibility, and why empathy and communication are essential when leading people through uncertainty.

If you are a CEO, founder, executive, or leader navigating growth, change, or legacy systems, this conversation offers real-world insight into leadership under pressure.

Topics covered in this episode include leadership transition, organizational change, homebuilding operations, COVID-19 disruption, outsourcing strategy, trust and credibility, executive decision making, communication, empathy, and modernizing legacy businesses.

Guest bio
Don Whetro is the Chief Executive Officer of AR Homes and AR Franchising, Inc., the company behind the AR Homes brand. Appointed CEO in December 2023 after serving as Chief Operating Officer, Don leads a national leadership team focused on modernizing the custom homebuilding experience while preserving a legacy of craftsmanship, design leadership, innovation, and customer focus. He brings over 20 years of experience across executive leadership, operations, sales, marketing, and strategic innovation within the homebuilding industry.

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/don-whetro/

Website: https://www.arfranchising.com/

I hope you enjoyed this episode! Give it a like, share, and subscribe to not miss the content coming your way weekly.

– Kyle and The Refit Podcast team

Visit the Kohora website here: https://www.kohorainc.com/

#TheRefitPodcast #KyleKillian #Leadership #ExecutiveLeadership #BusinessLeadership #VeteranLeadership #HardThingAboutHardThings #LeadershipDevelopment #Entrepreneurship #CEOInsights #FounderStories #OperationalLeadership The Refit Podcast is where real leadership happens—no platitudes, no polished corporate speak, just honest conversations about the hard decisions that keep leaders up at night. Hosted by Kyle Killian, founder of Kohora and former U.S. Navy Intelligence Officer with nearly 30 years of military, corporate, and entrepreneurial leadership experience, this podcast dives into the moments when the playbook stopped working and leaders had to figure it out anyway.
Each episode features candid discussions with CEOs, founders, operators, and veteran business leaders who've been in the arena—making tough calls with incomplete information, navigating organisational challenges, and coming out the other side with hard-won lessons. Kyle brings his unique perspective from leading intelligence missions in Iraq to driving growth at Fanatics, Nike, and Converse, creating conversations that go beyond theory into what actually happened when things didn't work.
Whether you're a business leader facing growth challenges, an executive navigating organisational transitions, a founder making high-stakes decisions, or a veteran moving into business leadership, The Refit Podcast offers practical insights from people who've been where you are. This is leadership stripped down to its essentials: the decisions, the consequences, and the lessons learned when you're in over your head.