The Panel

The power of attention

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Sat, 18 Apr 2026 13:58:06 -0700

In this episode we discuss how small teams can leverage AI as teammates, the impact on business outcomes, and the cultural shifts driven by AI advancements. How would Steve Jobs handle marketing and selling AI at Apple? How do the kids today think about AI? And Jordan explains the Allbirds nonsense.

Chapters:
00:00 Introduction
01:38 The Evolution of Teamwork and Tools
07:41 Balancing Accountability and Autonomy
10:40 The Role of Agents in Team Dynamics
13:42 Challenges of Implementing AI in Business
16:36 The Future of Marketing and AI
22:39 Imagining Steve Jobs in the Age of AI
30:42 The Value of Struggle and Learning in a Tech-Driven World
39:58 Navigating Career Paths in an Evolving Job Market
45:50 Navigating Job Market Changes
50:16 Jordan explains The Allbirds Controversy
57:04 The Power of Attention in Business
01:02:29 Storytelling in Marketing
01:10:51 Building Relationships for Effective Distribution
01:15:11 Pricing Transistor's Video Strategy
01:23:42 Innovative Marketing Strategies and Anticipation Phases

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Links mentioned in this episode:

Henry's product - https://runsteady.com/
Linear blog post (brave) - https://linear.app/next
Allbirds turns into an AI company - https://creators.yahoo.com/lifestyle/story/the-unhinged-genius-of-allbirds-39m-exit-sell-the-brand-spike-demand-become-ai-164312969.html
The company that acquired the old Allbirds brand - https://www.axnygroup.com/our-brands
CNBC: “Struggling shoe retailer Allbirds makes bizarre pivot to AI, adds $127 million in value”

Is "vision" overrated?

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 10 Apr 2026 15:07:08 -0700

Does vision matter? And how far into the future should your vision be these days? And how do we deal with copycats in the age of AI? And who is our money pin in the Anthropic vs OpenAI vs Google horse race, especially with mythos in the news.

Timestamps:
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Links mentioned in this episode:

Quick Sight – AWS https://aws.amazon.com/quick/quicksight/
Stripe Sigma https://stripe.com/en-mx/sigma
Paddle https://www.paddle.com/profitwell-metrics
Claude Mythos https://red.anthropic.com/2026/mythos-preview/
Owner.com https://www.owner.com/
Base44 https://base44.com/

Respite from the Dopamine Machine

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 03 Apr 2026 16:31:08 -0700

Why doesn't AI prompt us more often if it's so smart? Ryan Hefner joins us to chat about our daily drivers for shoes, IDE, AI provider, getting the news, and planning a vacation.

Timestamps:

(00:07) - Introducing Ryan Hefner
(03:53) - Today's topic: how we choose our daily drivers
(04:54) - Updates with Justin
(08:54) - Update from Brian
(14:16) - Ryan's Launch week concept
(23:04) - The concept of daily drivers in life
(25:35) - Daily driver shoes
(29:58) - Daily driver IDE
(33:31) - Remote controlling Claude
(44:44) - Daily driver for AI
(50:09) - We often stick with a product even when a new one would be more efficient or helpful
(53:37) - Daily driver for getting the news
(01:04:32) - Daily drivers for vacations
(01:15:11) - AI needs to be prompting us more
(01:22:01) - Daily driver for voice transcription

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Can AI be your CRM?

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 27 Mar 2026 16:27:27 -0700

Justin's hosting this one and he brought along Ben Curtis from Honeybadger to talk about how AI can be a CRM and also your designer.

Timestamps:

(00:15) - Introducing Ben Curtis
(02:57) - How is Honeybadger using AI?
(06:35) - How do you determine which model to use for different problems?
(09:33) - How are we using AI in marketing and sales?
(24:09) - How Steve Schoger used AI to design
(33:32) - How much longer will websites matter?
(38:47) - How intelligent are LLMs at product market fit?
(44:40) - Transistor Update: Video podcast hosting + Ghost integration
(47:18) - What Honeybadger is working on
(50:26) - Updates from Brian's work

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Scam or no scam? (with Jordan)

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 20 Mar 2026 17:29:54 -0700

It's Jordan's turn to host and he's got some AI companies he's not sure about...

Timestamps:

(00:06) - Jordan's episode to host!
(01:19) - Business update from Brian
(05:45) - Justin's business update
(14:09) - How Jordan advertises to his existing customers
(21:50) - Jordan's business update
(28:48) - Is Polsia fake or real?
(40:47) - Adam Wathan announces ui.sh
(58:12) - Is Delve AI compliance a scam?
(01:14:45) - Where is OpenClaw today and what's the point?

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The money tunnel

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Sat, 14 Mar 2026 07:47:47 -0700

Brian, Justin, and Jordan talk about the opportunity costs in business decision-making, the impact of AI on marketing channels and strategies, and building custom internal tools with AI versus SaaS solutions.

Timestamps:

(00:44) - Brian takes the lead
(02:17) - Opportunity costs
(17:29) - What is Brian's opportunity on Twitter?
(21:41) - Figuring out what Builder Methods is and who it's for
(24:53) - Should Brian hire someone to help achieve his goal?
(28:47) - How is AI killing Saas
(39:54) - People will want their own agent to use the softare, not a company's AI
(51:07) - Jordan's CRM experiment

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Links:

Builder Methods Pro
Brian's YouTube

A rainbow of internet fantasies

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 06 Mar 2026 15:50:32 -0800

What happened to you in Mexico? Justin is back from his co-founder retreat with Jon on Holbox Island. He gets vulnerable about the drift that naturally happens in a remote co-founder relationship, the big conversations they'd been avoiding, and the realization that alignment isn't a one-time thing (it requires constant investment!). Jordan and Brian weigh in on co-founder dynamics, decision-making in a 50/50 partnership, and why strategy has to belong to a key decision maker.

The conversation then spills into the "Mexican standoff" happening on teams as AI reshapes who does what and whether that's something to fear (or lean into).

Timestamps:

(00:06) - Introduction
(01:47) - Justin and Jon's founder retreat
(06:44) - Using video as an example of how to communicate with cofounders
(09:45) - It's not a marriage, it's a dictatorship
(12:12) - What do goals look like for a company?
(20:48) - Video is hard and heavy... should we do it?
(24:22) - What Jordan's done to help alignment on his team
(29:46) - What about Jon's side of the conversation?
(39:46) - Navigating new work dynamics with the speed of AI
(46:56) - There are smart developers resisting AI - why?
(54:24) - A Mexican standoff on teams
(01:06:47) - Company design and system design

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Links mentioned in this episode:

Holbox Island
Photos from co-founder retreat
Article: The five stages of losing our craft
Article: Will Claude Code ruin our team?
Jack Dorsey lays off 931 workers
Polsia - this weird AI driven SaaS making $2m! (You give it an idea, provide a budget/credit card, and it autonomously launches the business)
More on Ben Cera, founder of Polsia
The Amazing Money Machine book cover

Embracing our AI business owning bots

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 27 Feb 2026 06:20:00 -0800

Brian and Jordan talk about the need for developers to adapt to survive, Brian debates how much of a content creator he is vs product seller, Jordan relates his experience talking with investors, and the rise of zero human companies ZHC.

Timestamps:

(00:18) - Welcoming Justin er Jordan back to the show
(02:48) - Companies that we're surprised aren't adopting AI tools
(11:49) - Roles are blending together
(20:18) - Is Brian a product person or creator?
(33:36) - Or should he be doing consulting?
(37:27) - Debating taking funding for Saas
(48:10) - Zero Human Companies

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A surprise announcement

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 20 Feb 2026 15:42:15 -0800

We make 2 big announcements about changes to The Panel. Then we debate whether there's a founder branding advantage and how AI will affect small software teams in 2026.

Timestamps:

(00:46) - Our first announcement
(02:20) - Why are we bringing Jordan on as a co-host?
(06:51) - Why did Jordan want to join The Panel?
(14:48) - What's the new format for The Panel?
(18:29) - Is there a founder branding advantage?
(37:03) - How is AI going to affect Saas in 2026 and beyond?
(43:32) - How small teams can adapt easier than larger teams to AI

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Links mentioned in this episode:

Bootstrapped Web
Marketing for Developers
A Mexican standoff Happening in AI
The five stages of losing our craft
Justin is the co-founder of Transistor.fm
Brian is the founder of Builder Methods
Jordan is the co-founder of Rosie

Changes coming to The Panel podcast

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Thu, 19 Feb 2026 15:05:33 -0800

Important: we're no longer livestreaming on Justin's personal YouTube channel. Make sure you're subscribed to The Panel's channel to get notified when we go live:

Subscribe to The Panel YouTube here -->

Join us FRIDAY (tomorrow, Feb 20) at 11 AM Pacific (2 pm EST) for a surprise announcement:
https://www.youtube.com/live/sxASjnzAYkw

We'll be announcing:
- A new ███████ ██████ ████
- And a brand new ████ ███████
- New livestream/recording time: Friday, 11 am Pacific
- Livestreams will now be streamed from The Panel YT channel, not Justin's personal channel

Get to the sauna!

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Thu, 12 Feb 2026 18:22:29 -0800

Brian and Justin jump off Matt Shumer's "Something Big is Happening" article to ask questions like is something big happening in AI that even regular folks need to be preparing for? Is this the most important year of your work as a software developer? Should you be getting your financial house in order to prepare for what's about to hit us all?

Timestamps:

(00:12) - Sick snow
(02:46) - Something big is happening here (AI edition)
(21:02) - Not having to be held down by legacy code speeds you up
(28:36) - Warnings to the non-technical world about AI
(45:35) - Humans have a hard time assessing their field of view in the future
(48:55) - This might be the most important year of your work
(51:12) - AI in education with kids
(56:05) - Seeing the world the way it is vs the way it was
(58:23) - Getting your financial house in order
(01:04:14) - The job market and the economy
(01:13:00) - Sometimes you have to play the game not on the field

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Links mentioned in this episode:

Justin's snowboard adventure in Revelstoke
"Something Big is Happening" – The viral Matt Shumer article (76M views)
Matt Shumer's blog
Matt Shumer's company (HyperWrite)
"Tool Shaped Objects" – The response to Shumer's post
Justin's new RSS feed
Builder Methods video library (Claude Code course)
Moneyball: "Adapt or die" clip
Justin's post on XSLT going away

OpenClaw and Building Fake Apps

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 06 Feb 2026 10:58:46 -0800

Come meet the crew of AI agents Brian has working for him, Justin's building fake apps to experiment and find out what he wants for real apps, and why don't we feel like we can relax now that we're doing ok?

Timestamps:

(00:45) - What we're talking about this episode
(03:14) - Brian's OpenClaw setup
(11:57) - The cost of token usage with OpenClaw
(17:32) - What makes the memory better in OpenClaw?
(22:38) - What about Cowork?
(25:21) - Working with multiple agents in OpenClaw
(27:07) - The problem of Siri
(29:25) - The challenges of working is the same across AI or hiring
(31:28) - The importance of thinking of AI as an employee
(35:03) - What you'll miss by using AI instead of hiring a human
(44:14) - Why Justin thinks it's important to build fake products
(49:57) - Justin's app to publish a video as a podcast
(53:41) - Building a company to compete with yourself like Freshbooks
(55:39) - How might Transistor change bringing in new features?
(01:04:07) - Design OS updates
(01:09:01) - Why is Brian working all the time and feeling urgency?
(01:16:26) - Marketing for developers in 2026
(01:30:37) - Founder led marketing is key
(01:36:27) - Where are the real products being built with AI? Is AI actually speeding me up?
(01:46:31) - Do I need to make as much money as possible now?

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"What happens when engineering outpaces marketing?" – Jordan Gal

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 16 Jan 2026 10:17:06 -0800

Jordan Gal joins The Panel to get some thoughts out about how software development feels like it's shifted since the holiday break, the lowering cost of making a mistake, how his team has to get ready for the new AI first workflow, marketing in the age of AI, and what happens to funding startups when anyone can build the app?

Timestamps:

(00:06) - Welcome
(00:20) - Introducing Jordan
(01:34) - The world changed over the holiday break
(12:17) - The cost of making a making a mistake used to be higher
(25:38) - Get ready. This is not optional.
(28:34) - Senior engineers have to adapt
(42:18) - How do organizations and teams adapt?
(47:59) - What needs to change so rapidly about Rosie?
(55:08) - How AI has averaged marketing
(01:22:23) - What happens to funding for startups in 2026?

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Links mentioned in this episode:

✨ Rose AI
👤 Jordan Gal
🛠️ Langdock AI
🐦 Adam Wathan & Tailwind Sponsors
💡 DHH on AI Agents
🔨 Builder Methods (Build with AI)
🎙️ Transistor.fm (podcast hosting)

2026: We Choose Hope

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 09 Jan 2026 11:37:19 -0800

Now that the holiday break is over, how are we feeling about 2026? We're talking about the new ideas we have to build or work on, as well as predictions for 2026 in AI, building, normal tech usage, and social media.

Timestamps:

(00:07) - New year, new excitement
(01:40) - What has changed since the holiday break?
(06:18) - Is Justin going to republish Marketing for Developers?
(11:30) - Building a membership site in Ghost
(18:37) - How Justin might release the updated content and podcast
(24:42) - Focus on original instead of the average
(37:25) - How Brian used Claude to generate visuals for a course on Claude Code
(46:43) - If everyone is jumping on AI coding in 2026, how is Brian set up to meet the demand?
(01:00:56) - Prediction for 2026: Standing out from the crowd is going to be key
(01:05:31) - What's stressing Brian about social media in 2026
(01:09:36) - Partnerships are going to be very important in 2026
(01:11:01) - The new media will just become the media
(01:15:14) - OpenAI will fade from the lead position
(01:20:36) - AI adoption by normal people needs a better paradigm
(01:27:13) - AI in music and tv wont' be significant
(01:29:44) - The problem or the blessing of building even faster with AI in a year
(01:38:29) - Bootstrapping will become the norm again in 2026
(01:42:12) - Meta is going to have a big year in 2026

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2026: Panic or Hope?

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 19 Dec 2025 12:05:14 -0800

We're looking back at what our thoughts were about 2025, and scheming ideas and plans for 2026. How do you hand over decision making in your business in an AI world? How does remote work first affect junior developers? And do you panic when sales slow down? Adjust? Rethink everything?

Timestamps:

(00:06) - Does Transistor get quiet around the Xmas holidays?
(02:08) - Dealing with insecurity in business
(05:34) - The Panel in 2026
(07:09) - Looking back on 2025
(12:54) - What kind of person is going to do well in 2026?
(20:51) - Figuring out how to hand over decision making to junior developers
(28:10) - Remote work vs local work
(32:35) - Every business is a people business, every problem is a people problem, every solution is a people solution
(41:03) - We can make requests and we can have boundaries
(45:08) - What do I want?
(48:29) - Should Brian diversify his marketing funnel away from YouTube?
(01:05:06) - Building a cloud service for my products
(01:24:04) - Building Inbox Summaries
(01:28:27) - Rewriting for Marketing for Developers for AI

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Do you worry about getting crushed by the competition?

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 05 Dec 2025 12:27:45 -0800

Justin shares his thoughts on competition crushing his business, Brian contemplates open sourcing an idea for front end AI tooling, and when should you run with a new idea vs knowing when to drop it.

Timestamps:

(00:00) - Get into it!
(00:47) - A founder has to worry about threats and opportunities
(17:55) - What got us here won't get us there
(28:42) - Why are trials increasing in 2025?
(34:20) - An update on Builder Methods
(40:11) - Deciding when to drop or maintain a project
(51:07) - People want AI on rails
(01:12:28) - 37Signals new product Fizzy
(01:15:52) - What's the benefit to open sourcing a project?
(01:32:59) - Leaving some value on the table

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Filtering out bad ideas

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Tue, 25 Nov 2025 17:06:23 -0800

Brian and Justin discuss the recent launch of Filterhawk, which Brian built to replace Gmail's built-in filters. They also talk about SaaS marketing strategies (which channels still work?). Justin shares some initial numbers from the Black Friday sale.

Timestamps:

(00:06) - Follow up on last week's Justin mystery
(02:51) - Brian launching Filterhawk
(13:29) - How did Brian build Filterhawk in a week?
(26:32) - The refinement phase
(34:59) - Transistor's Black Friday sales
(44:34) - BuilderMethodsPro Black Friday deal
(49:34) - Brian's entering phase 2 of Builder Methods
(01:06:28) - Thinking about where we have gaps in knowledge of our customers
(01:09:45) - Thinking about marketing to teams and larger companies

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Mystery caller

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 14 Nov 2025 11:38:26 -0800

Brian and Justin are joined by a surprise guest: Nadav Keyson, founder of Riverside. We had an impromptu conversation about how Riverside launched (and found traction), the impact of funding (vs bootstrapping), how Navad thinks about competition, and whether he thinks having investors leads to more stress.

Timestamps:

(00:10) - Agenda for the episode
(02:19) - The future of The Panel
(16:18) - WE'LL DO IT LIVE!
(17:22) - Nadav Keyson from Riverside joins
(22:27) - How much should we think about our competition?
(26:15) - When did Riverside raise money and invest in content / SEO?
(28:42) - What were the keys to building a stable product in a competitive space?
(31:41) - What are the challenges ahead for Riverside?
(35:00) - How much is AI involved in writing Riverside's code?
(39:55) - Has Nadav's stress lessened as Riverside has grown?
(50:47) - Why should someone use your app? Why you?
(01:06:51) - Forming an opinion about the world vs finding demand for a solution
(01:14:23) - Brian's building Filterhawk
(01:26:41) - What happened to Justin?

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Maybe, do the opposite

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 31 Oct 2025 10:58:58 -0700

AI dev is changing rapidly, and... AI dev is rapidly changing how we build websites and apps. Brian and Justin wrestle with this new reality and discuss the different phases of a startup, how indies can cultivate brand loyalty, and when you should maybe do the opposite of what everyone else is doing.

Timestamps:

(00:00) - What does Justin do all day?
(00:14) - Welcome to The Panel
(04:05) - The phases of startups
(20:04) - AI coding might be moving away from spec driven development
(27:52) - The future of products is shifting regularly
(31:46) - Building a website dynamically with AI
(46:41) - How much brand loyalty do we have in the age of AI?
(01:13:45) - Singing the counter melody

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Going Back to Grade 12

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 24 Oct 2025 10:53:00 -0700

Justin spoke to a grade 12 class about entrepreneurship, and was surprised by what he learned about teenagers.

Brian has thoughts on the impact of Agent OS v2.1 and struggles with the support burden of open-source software.

They talk about “Wealth is the freedom from having to monetize every idea." Also: Johnny Ive and Rivian founder RJ Scaringe's product design processes.

Timestamps:

(00:00) - Now It's Time for The Panel
(01:30) - AI music creation
(05:45) - Segments update
(06:39) - Casel or Castle or ?
(07:55) - Justin's visit to a grade 12 entrepreneur class
(18:14) - What kinds of questions did the kids ask?
(23:31) - Projects that generate unwanted jobs
(40:25) - The relief of wealth DHH tweet
(56:19) - Jonny Ive and caring about design
(01:05:14) - Cheeky Pint podcast interview with Rivian founder

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Double duty with Aaron Francis

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 17 Oct 2025 17:50:12 -0700

Aaron Francis joins The Panel this week to talk about entrepreneurship, programming, and parenting. We chatted about how personal experiences shape our business journeys, the evolution of programming tools, and the importance of identifying market signals for success.

Timestamps:

(00:16) - Aaron Francis joins The Panel
(02:06) - How we're teaching our kids about programming?
(09:36) - The gap between AI code and design
(16:04) - How much AI are we using to write newsletters?
(20:22) - The web feels like it's back
(21:26) - Signals your business is working
(43:47) - Navigating when to pivot
(52:56) - What would you say to grade 12 class?
(01:12:26) - How to decide what product to work on next
(01:22:12) - Recording live streams of working sessions
(01:35:35) - Worrying about ideal customers vs just trying stuff

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Surviving on the internet

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 10 Oct 2025 02:05:00 -0700

Justin is impressed with V0's ability to build working prototypes quickly. We've also got Sora 2 thoughts. And... what should we teach our kids when AI makes everything easy? Brian launches Agent OS v2. Could either of us survive without the internet for more than a day?

Timestamps:

(00:00) - This can be the show
(00:20) - Prototyping Transistor's episode creation UI in v0
(05:39) - Who would be working on this kind of project at Transistor?
(12:55) - Our thoughts on Sora 2
(21:00) - How will we be able to tell what's human creations vs AI?
(31:40) - Are kids growing up being too dependant on AI?
(49:30) - What motivates us is different for each person
(56:42) - Is building in AI the key to revenue?
(01:02:10) - How has the launch of AgentOS v2 going?
(01:06:47) - Customers pulling vs pushing to customers
(01:09:55) - Brian's thinknig around content for pro members
(01:16:15) - Could we survive in a cabin in the woods without internet?

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Will vibe coding and AI give product people an advantage?

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Mon, 06 Oct 2025 11:27:09 -0700

Justin Jackson and Brian Casel discuss the evolving landscape of entrepreneurship, particularly in the context of AI's impact on product development, creativity, and the job market. They explore the importance of having a clear vision when using AI tools, the challenges faced by junior developers, and the enduring need for human connection in art and media. The discussion also touches on the future of work, the role of AI in enhancing productivity, and the implications for artists and creators in a rapidly changing environment.

Timestamps:

(01:48) - Vibe coding a marketing tool for Transistor
(11:23) - Coding with AI vs designing with AI
(18:35) - Is vibe coding a playground or for serious development work?
(24:57) - Negativity around AI and building
(46:24) - Artists and AI
(01:00:36) - Will we ever go back to the social days of Twitter
(01:08:34) - What are your Q4 goals? Do you think about end of the year business planning?
(01:31:27) - The importance of telling people what you're doing
(01:42:53) - The benefits of a long career

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Business vibes

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 26 Sep 2025 12:13:27 -0700

Justin vibe-coded an app 5 minutes before recording this episode. Justin and the Transistor team just got back from Banff for their annual company retreat. How do these retreats actually work? What are they good for? Brian has some pretty good signups for Builder Methods Pro memberships! (How can he keep that momentum going?) He's also juggling Agent OS customer support.

Timestamps:

(00:00) - Intro
(00:21) - Justin's been vibe coding again
(02:11) - Transistor's company retreat
(14:48) - The benefits of hiring a photographer for team retreats
(21:56) - Laying out the vision for Transistor
(25:23) - An easy way to tell how often you're shipping new features
(34:45) - Builder Methods workshop update
(41:31) - Selling annual subscriptions
(46:40) - The mixture of feelings around launching
(48:52) - The struggle of dealing with inbound messages
(54:47) - Figuring out how to help teams as well as individuals
(57:54) - What do Justin and Jon want next?
(01:16:08) - Should we think about our competitors?
(01:31:44) - Vibe coding vs AI assistant in the code

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Business Dad, digital fatigue, Outro.fm, Builder Methods

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 12 Sep 2025 12:47:32 -0700

We're joined by Ian Landsman, from the Mostly Technical podcast, joins us to chat about Outro.fm and Helpspot. We talk digital fatigue, the challenges of maintaining an online presence, the importance of building a community around shared interests, finding the right audience, and balancing personal goals with business objectives. As Brian⁩ prepares to launch Builder Methods Pro, we debate the value of community feedback and the potential for unforeseen opportunities in creating content online. Ian talks with us about the development of Outro.fm as an all-in-one solution for podcasters, the importance of building a membership community, the production side of podcasting tools, and the challenges faced in the podcasting market. Also: the difference between one-time sale products (courses) and SaaS.

Timestamps:

(00:06) - The pre-show is the show
(00:23) - Quitting Twitter
(06:19) - Redesigning his website with AI
(07:53) - Deciding on what a channel is for
(13:59) - Chasing views and likes
(20:58) - What are we up to this week
(29:36) - Why subscription and community vs team training and consulting
(50:32) - What should the premium content be for day one?
(57:08) - What is Outro.fm?
(01:15:04) - Who are Outro.fm's competition?
(01:21:47) - Selling sponsorships for podcasts as a product
(01:25:43) - The bet on how much revenue you'll get from your work
(01:43:59) - Step 1: Become famous

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Why does the same amount of effort produce wildly different results?

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 05 Sep 2025 12:26:01 -0700

Brian is wondering: how do you manage a popular open source project? Justin went to Toronto and introduced his son to Adam Wathan, Wes Bos, Steve Schoger, and Caleb Porzio. Why does the same amount of effort produce wildly different results? And... is everyone getting tired of all this copycat content that's optimized for algorithms?

Timestamps:

(00:20) - Preview of what we're going to talk about
(02:11) - Builder Methods Pro and AgentOS
(03:58) - The importance of human content in an age of algorithmic feeds
(25:55) - Connecting with people in real life
(33:52) - Zeroing in on Builder Methods revenue
(48:25) - Managing an open source project in public
(59:22) - The importance of enthusiasm in projects
(01:12:21) - Effort and outcome

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A framework for getting what you want

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 15 Aug 2025 17:07:09 -0700

Justin's been using Stripe Sigma to learn a lot more about the history of revenue at Transistor. He had a phone call with Jason Cohen about how to get what you want out of your business. And Brian talks through the same frameworks to figure out what might work best for Builder Methods including exploration of courses, cohorts, community, and more.

Timestamps:

(00:06) - We're back!
(00:59) - Brian's healthcare journey
(09:36) - Deep dive into Stripe Sigma and Transistor's history
(37:38) - Asking yourself the hard questions about your business
(42:12) - The value of taking a win now
(57:29) - What does Brian want with BuilderMethods
(01:14:35) - Rob Snyder's Pull framework
(01:30:48) - Can you do community well without the time commitment?
(01:35:17) - Cohort vs courses
(01:57:23) - How long is a long podcast episode?

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Should we be outsourcing customer support to AI chatbots?

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 18 Jul 2025 09:50:20 -0700

Justin is wondering whether AI customer support is worth it. Brian is navigating the emotional rollercoaster of YouTube. He's wondering whether he should pursue sponsorships as a revenue stream. Brian introduces Agent OS, a new development tool designed to streamline coding processes when working with AI tooling (which got a big reaction during the live stream).

Timestamps:

(00:33) - Justin's experiment with AI support chat bots
(15:20) - Do you want AI writing your responses?
(19:06) - Trying to figure out why Brian's latest video didn't work as well
(26:35) - How important is it to keep publishing every week?
(30:56) - Thinking sponsorship vs products
(45:36) - The value of community
(56:23) - What is Agent OS?
(01:05:00) - Should Agent OS be free?

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I don't love SaaS anymore

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 11 Jul 2025 11:30:27 -0700

AI and programming is a hot topic, and it feels like Brian⁩ has found that "founder/audience" fit where his interests align with a wave of audience interest. He and Justin discuss their process for making YouTube videos. Justin also asks: "how do we ensure that our worst tendencies don’t bloom" when we're making products? (Founder retreats and masterminds come up). The big topic: Brian's not loving SaaS (anymore).

Timestamps:

(00:06) - Brian's YouTube journey
(04:29) - What Brian's hoping BuilderMethods could be
(08:26) - What does Brian's YouTube video script look like?
(10:59) - Why is AI so bad for YouTube editors?
(16:57) - One thing Descript really nails
(19:44) - How Steve Jobs ruined his early companies
(24:25) - Learning about your blindspots
(28:40) - Seeking connection in mastermind groups or conferences
(38:00) - How can we make sure we don't follow our worst impulses?
(42:23) - Zooming in on our battery: what gives us energy?
(53:00) - Getting alignment between what you love and what makes you money
(01:00:10) - What might not work for one person, can be a smash hit for another
(01:03:20) - What is the paid value of content lead companies?
(01:21:07) - There are business models that are difficult

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What's in Justin's Buckets?

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 04 Jul 2025 13:17:22 -0700

It's Justin's turn in the hot seat to talk about what he's got in his buckets: which projects make the most money? Which take the most time? Where is he focused on breaking new ground? How does Transistor, The Podcast Standards Projects, and other projects he's got going all fit together? Plus: what kind of grit, desire, and resilience do you need to actually build a company that works?

Timestamps:

(01:09) - Why Brian will never join your Slack
(04:54) - What email client did Brian switch to?
(16:56) - Justin's matrix of boxes
(17:58) - What are Justin's boxes?
(19:54) - What is the Podcast Standards Project?
(28:57) - The benefits of working in the same place together
(35:49) - Pushing back on Justin's time allotement
(38:48) - What's the work in the investment portfolio?
(48:34) - Having the motivation and ability to commit
(58:24) - Running your own business + a family changes the calculations
(01:01:04) - Getting encouragment from simple projects

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Illustration: Justin's buckets
Instrumental Components - Brian's new product
Clarity Flow - Brian's SaaS product
Transistor.fm - Justin's company
Builder Methods
Instrumental Components
HEY – A delightfully fresh take on email + calendar, from 37signals
Superhuman | The most productive email app ever made
Shortwave | Download
Readwise
Podcast Standards Project | Advocating for open podcasting
ProjectionLab - Modern Financial & Retirement Planning Tools
Tiny | We buy wonderful businesses
Going independent (2016 year in review)
Here are some other podcasts we like
For next week: Andrew Wilkinson's tweet about AI

"Happy little shovels"

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 20 Jun 2025 13:41:21 -0700

Brian Casel shares a first look at BuilderMethods.com. Brian dig into how he's going to grow an email list from scratch, and we had a great chat about what makes an email newsletter awesome.

The bulk of our chat was about honestly assessing the resources, time, and energy Brian is putting into each project, and how much revenue each project is producing. (Check out Justin's diagram here)

Timestamps:

(00:05) - We're back live!
(01:15) - What is BuilderMethods.com?
(04:04) - Brian's building a newsletter builder first
(08:17) - What makes a good newsletter?
(15:44) - Do videos work in email newsletters?
(20:00) - Next steps for Brian in the business: products to offer?
(22:17) - Offering consulting and coaching
(25:20) - Does it all feel overwhelming to take on?
(30:53) - Visualizing Brian's project's revenue vs time
(34:05) - Audience building vs Saas building
(41:56) - How excited is Brian about each project?
(58:14) - How do you quantify the time and revenue?

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Links mentioned in this episode

Instrumental Components - Brian's new product
Clarity Flow - Brian's SaaS product
Transistor.fm - Justin's company
Builder Methods
Instrumental Components
Audience Ops
Justin’s “Bob Ross” strategy diagram
Marketing for Devs
Curated
Mailbrew
A Book Apart
Web framework popularity
Hitenism
Aaron Francis Newsletter
Tangle
Product market fit collapse
Why Justin pivoted businesses in 2018

Brian Launches His New Project

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 13 Jun 2025 10:40:15 -0700

Brian's walking through the new website and idea he's launching and getting Justin's feedback on what he thinks will work and what could use refining, the struggle of creating video content in 2025, keeping course content fresh, whether another podcast is the best use of time, and whether targeting junior or professional software developers is the best route to go.

Timestamps:

(00:00) - What broke the internet?
(02:00) - Sports is heartache
(05:49) - The trouble with hosting video costs
(24:57) - What is Brian launching?
(35:13) - The struggle of creating video content
(37:48) - How are people finding the videos on YouTube?
(47:19) - What do we think about the revenue opportunities for Brian's idea?
(51:49) - Keeping a course and content fresh in 2025
(59:38) - Should Brian start another podcast?
(01:04:21) - Should I target junior or professional software developers with AI training?
(01:22:20) - Live shoutouts

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Links mentioned in this episode

Instrumental Components - Brian's new product
Clarity Flow - Brian's SaaS product
Transistor.fm - Justin's company
Amazon S3
Mux
HTTP Live Streaming
Delivering 15TB of 4K video with Cloudflare R2 for $2.18
How About Tomorrow?
Cloudflare Stream
FFmpeg
How Vibe Coding Goes PRO
buildermethods.com
Descript
ScreenFlow
Telestream Blog
Stephen Robles
Mostly Technical
CRUSH Your Backlog With Background Agents in Cursor
No, AI Won’t Turn Everyone Into App Developers

Changed my mind: AI is actually good for coding

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 06 Jun 2025 11:01:32 -0700

Big episode! Brian shares the results of his launch of Instrumental Components (sales numbers, and how he's feeling). He also talks about his next project: helping devs and teams navigate how to use AI in software development and design. This episode was recorded live, with tons of folks joining us in the "panel" chat. Adam Wathan ended up joining us last-minute to talk about how he's changed is mind on AI and coding, and how AI is affecting Tailwind's business.

Timestamps:

(02:50) - What is Instrumental Components and how has the launch been?
(11:06) - Why not go for something big?
(24:26) - What you hear online vs the reality of what's going on
(29:24) - Pricing change for Instrumental Components
(34:04) - Where Brian's going next
(51:42) - Adam Wathan on how they're using AI
(01:06:14) - Writing PRD for AI instead of prompt writing
(01:09:39) - How is AI going to affect Adam's business?
(01:24:03) - Vibe coding personal projects

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Back from London UK – so much to talk about

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 30 May 2025 03:02:00 -0700

Justin just got back from a big trip to London UK for the podcast industry conference, and honestly, it's got him thinking about some big thoughts about the podcasting medium. This episode starts out with an honest chat between Brian and Justin: 'How are you feeling about the podcast so far?'

Timestamps:

(00:06) - Just the two of us
(01:06) - The struggle with guests on a podcast
(10:33) - What if we did it live?
(16:46) - What's Justin been up to?
(20:28) - How does the shift in podcasting affect Transistor?
(24:50) - Justin's universal theory about podcasting
(39:51) - One reason Justin is hopeful
(43:42) - The pipeline problem is a big one for startups
(51:19) - How could Transistor work in a video podcast world
(57:53) - Why Justin is hopeful about Apple Podcasts

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Links mentioned in this episode

The Podcast Show
Instrumental Components - Brian's new product
Clarity Flow - Brian's SaaS product
Transistor.fm - Justin's company

Brian's launch – how did it go?

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 16 May 2025 14:25:58 -0700

Justin and Brian talk about how Brian's launch for Instrumental Components went. "Some things are way harder now that I'm older." Brian describes some of the technical challenges faced during the launch. There's also a meaty section about how much AI to use in software development (and how Brian uses it). At the end, Justin provides some feedback on Brian's pricing and marketing strategy.

Timestamps:

(00:05) - Introduction
(02:00) - Brian's early access launch
(04:15) - The fear that nobody is going to buy
(06:45) - Sass vs product
(09:43) - How does it feel to launch a product as a solo person?
(13:11) - Hiring vs doing it yourself + AI
(24:20) - Are we losing the shared experience?
(37:20) - Why are you batching invites out?
(46:23) - The pricing decision
(51:13) - The importance of positioning
(55:40) - Why should this be a subscription?
(01:04:38) - The importance of getting other people telling your story
(01:09:23) - How to ask for social support from your people
(01:17:16) - What's Justin up to next

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Links mentioned in this episode

Aaron Francis' tweet
Adam Wathan
How About Tomorrow?
The REWORK Podcast
Replit
Statamic
Gravity Forms
Tailwind UI Components
Radical Design Course
Instrumental Components - Brian's new product
Clarity Flow - Brian's SaaS product
Transistor.fm - Justin's company

"I hit my initial goal for my business – what's next?"

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 09 May 2025 03:01:00 -0700

Justin is wrestling with strategic decisions for Transistor after hitting his initial "success goal," while Brian is two weeks away from launching a new Rails components product and grappling with how to reach his target audience.

Timestamps:

(00:06) - What are we talking about in this episode?
(01:41) - The importance of a founder or CEO
(05:40) - Learning about marketing from politics
(18:27) - Thinking about the next phase of Transistor
(36:27) - Not knowing how a new product or service will be recieved until you launch it
(48:34) - Being in motion in the direction you think you need to move
(53:12) - Trying to figure out what makes me different
(01:00:26) - Brian sharing his survey
(01:09:35) - How do the rest of us reach people?
(01:21:38) - SEO ideas in 2025

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Links mentioned in this episode

Podcast Movement: The World’s Largest Podcasting Community | Events, Resources & More!
Justin Jackson – SaaS, bootstrapping, marketing
Jordan Gal Voice AI
Marketing Automation
Customer Engagement
Email-First OS
AI Video Editing
AI Code Editor
.NET & JavaScript Libraries
Instrumental Products - Brian's company
Clarity Flow - Brian's SaaS product
Transistor.fm - Justin's company

"Waiting for the Dam to Break" - Jordan Gal's bet on voice AI

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 25 Apr 2025 09:13:31 -0700

Jordan Gal is breaking the mold with his new startup Rosie. He's targeting non-technical small business owners using consumer-style marketing rather than the B2B approaches most SaaS use. He talks about the opportunities and risks with AI-based startups, and how he's waiting for the "dam to break."

Timestamps:

(00:00) - Intro
(03:42) - Using what I want to listen to to guide what I create
(12:10) - The advantage of finding your audience
(16:26) - What kinds of experiments have you run lately?
(23:28) - What is the marketing strategy for Rosie?
(33:10) - Struggling with content creation
(47:28) - It can be dangerous when your audience is also your customers
(54:02) - Content is not the end goal
(01:05:19) - Building a business on tradespeople

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Links mentioned in this episode

Rosie - AI Call Answering Service
Jordan Gal - Portland, Oregon, rallyon.com | about.me
Post Purchase Offers
Brian Casel
Bootstrapped Web
Wireframing Tools
Instrumental Products - Brian's company
Clarity Flow - Brian's SaaS product
Transistor.fm - Justin's company

Figuring out what to do next (Adam Wathan)

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 04 Apr 2025 13:45:51 -0700

Adam Wathan sat down with Justin and Brian to talk about the challenge of staying motivated with your own business, even when you've "made it."

However successful you think a well-known product or founder might be, the truth is everyone's dealing with stresses and challenges and things that don't work and figuring out what to do next. That's what this episode is about.

The discussion also touches on the potential of video content and YouTube as a way of getting in motion and regaining motivation.

Timestamps:

(00:06) - Intro
(02:52) - Evaluating past efforts and losing confidence
(27:27) - Do we try and get more of the same thing, or build to a new thing?
(29:58) - Getting excited about building out a new space
(37:51) - Publishing when you're inspired
(59:11) - Are we too old?
(01:03:23) - Finding inspiration in new locations

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Links mentioned in this episode

Tailwind CSS - Adam's company
Tailwind's YouTube channel
Instrumental Products - Brian's company
Clarity Flow - Brian's SaaS product
Transistor.fm - Justin's company

How do you find Founder-Product Fit?

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 21 Mar 2025 04:00:00 -0700

Brian Casel hosts a candid conversation with Val Sopi and Christian Genco about the realities of launching new SaaS products in 2025. All three founders are at pivotal moments in their entrepreneurial journeys, wrestling with what products to build next, how to balance consulting work with product development, and finding the elusive "founder-product fit" that makes building a business sustainable and enjoyable. They share their strategies for validating ideas, dealing with competition, and defining what success truly means beyond just revenue targets.

The discussion delves into the unique challenges of the current SaaS landscape, from the impact of AI on product development to the importance of building products that genuinely excite you as a founder. Whether you're considering your next product launch or questioning your current direction, this episode offers valuable perspectives from bootstrappers who've been through multiple product cycles and are navigating their next moves.

Timestamps:

(00:00) - Welcome
(01:35) - Guest introduction
(03:31) - Why are we considering a new Saas business in 2025?
(12:07) - Have we thought about doing something else besides Saas?
(22:09) - How do you convince yourself that your new idea is going to work?
(28:15) - How do we view competition in Saas?
(32:43) - Thinking about founder fit as much as market fit
(37:43) - What is Christian thinking about for his own product?
(44:07) - How to think about competition in 2025
(52:29) - How do we stay excited about our products or projects?
(59:09) - What does success look like for you this year?

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Links mentioned in this episode

Instrumental Products - Brian's company
Clarity Flow - Brian's SaaS product
BlogMaker.app - Val's current SaaS
FileInbox.com - Christian's SaaS
Cursor - AI coding tool discussed in the episode
Rails Components Library – Brian's new project
Paddle - Payment processor Val mentioned for his new product
Justin's MicroConf talk on founder-market fit
Brett Victor - Human Computing

Is doing YouTube a good business?

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 07 Mar 2025 12:35:39 -0800

Marie Poulin and Aaron Francis join us to discuss the realities of building creator-driven businesses. We talked a lot about YouTube (they describe how each got traction there) and their current video making process. They also challenged conventional wisdom about sticking to one niche. For them, pivoting between projects keeps them fresh and prevents burnout, even when the traditional wisdom is to "just focus."

Chapters:

(00:06) - Introduction
(03:23) - What is happening in Marie Poulin's world?
(07:32) - What is Aaron Francis up to at Try Hard Studios?
(08:48) - Why is open source software important to be involved in?
(11:20) - What is the marketing flow for Marie and Notion Mastery?
(14:34) - The power of YouTube to find new people
(16:52) - Personality as a brand vs a studio brand name
(25:03) - The tensions of being a creator
(33:49) - What is your month to month routine for your business?
(39:16) - When does creative work feel like a grind?
(01:00:47) - What negative attention have you recieved creating content?

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Links mentioned in this episode

💼 Notion Mastery
💪 Try Hard Studios
Marie's YouTube channel
Aaron's YouTube channel
Screencasting.com - Aaron's upcoming project
ChatGPT lists Marie as #1 Notion influencer
🧰 Instrumental Products
🎤 Transistor podcast hosting

Should you still build in public? Peldi (Balsamiq) and Jay Clouse (Creator Science)

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 21 Feb 2025 01:15:00 -0800

Peldi is the founder of Balsamiq and pioneered transparent business building in 2007. In this episode, he came to the Panel looking advice on "build in public." We invited Jay Clouse, of Creator Science, on to share his wisdom. Jay had tons of practical suggestions for SaaS founders looking to build community and build in public in an authentic way.

Chapters:

(00:08) - Introduction of The Panel
(04:24) - Why is Peldi interested in build in public in 2025?
(09:32) - Build in public has become brag in public
(20:44) - Can Peldi give back in some way?
(28:25) - Could you teach people how to build in public again?
(35:13) - How much work is it to maintain community?
(40:46) - Sharing your struggles in public
(47:57) - Why does Peldi still share revenue numbers?
(51:46) - Could Balsamiq sponsor a community?
(56:34) - What do current founders need to know?

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Links mentioned in this episode

The business of open source - Caleb Porzio (Livewire) and Taylor Otwell (Laravel)

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 07 Feb 2025 01:18:00 -0800

Is web development still a good career choice in 2025? What's the future of open source? Justin and Brian dive deep with Taylor Otwell (Laravel) and Caleb Porzio (Livewire, Alpine.js, Flux) about the state of web dev, building a business on open source, and the anxiety of managing competition.

Chapters:

(03:31) - Should people still pursue web development as a career?
(11:04) - Are we still excited about the web? Why is Laravel growing?
(16:27) - How big are your customers?
(25:23) - How interested are developers on the business side of Saas?
(34:39) - How did you think about open source when you were getting started?
(41:19) - How do you think about being a creator when you have a large business?
(55:57) - The next generation pipeline
(01:00:47) - Rethinking open source
(01:10:52) - What's your anxiety level towards competition?

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📧 Email us: panelpodcastshow@gmail.com
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Links mentioned in this episode

SaaS predictions for 2025 – Colleen Schnettler and Tyler King

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 24 Jan 2025 01:00:00 -0800

Is bootstrapping a SaaS dead in 2025? How will AI affect software development as an industry? What's working when it comes to marketing?

Justin Jackson (Transistor.fm) and Brian Casel (Instrumental Products) are joined by Colleen Schnettler (SaaS Marketing Gym) and Tyler King (Less Annoying CRM) to debate our predictions for the new year.

CHAPTERS:
0:00 - What to expect
3:25 - Is SaaS Getting Harder in 2025?
5:16 - Bootstrapped SaaS is past its prime
8:32 - "Can you really build a good product with AI?"
12:00 - "No-Code is in trouble, AI makes product discovery harder, SaaS goldrush is over."
14:17 - What kind of business should you start in 2025?
16:34 - AI can't replace the craft and expertise required to launch a good product
19:06 - Is it harder to go from Zero to One?
20:23 - Marketing predictions - what's going to work this year?
27:58 - "Nothing works. Marketing is bullshit." – Tyler King
30:43 - People want to interact with real humans (Reddit, podcasts, YouTube)
32:14 - Organic search is still big (but AI is sending some traffic)
34:20 - How you can win against AI and other competitors: customer support
36:33 - A bootstrapper's advantage is that they're small and they care
39:27 - Question for the listener: have you had a good customer support experience with AI chatbots?
40:27 - Another tactic that might work: get people on the phone!
42:07 - Should we all short Tesla stock?
45:19 - Our plans for 2025

Tell us what you think! 🗣️

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📧 Email us: panelpodcastshow@gmail.com
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Find us on Bluesky:

Colleen Schnettler – @leenyburger.bsky.social
Tyler King – @tylerking.app
Justin Jackson – @justinjackson.ca
Brian Castle – @briancasel.com

Links mentioned in the episode:

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The Panel – smart founders discuss the realities of building a business

Justin Jackson, Brian Casel, Jordan Gal — Fri, 10 Jan 2025 08:38:30 -0800

When it comes to bootstrapping and building software, there's rarely one correct answer.

The secret to building better products, profitable companies, and a better life is knowing how to find the best answer for you. That’s the purpose of The Panel podcast.

Join hosts Justin (Transistor.fm) and Brian Casel (Instrumental Products) in each episode as they bring together a panel of founders, software developers, and friends to discuss hot topics like:

- What's really working in SaaS marketing
- The impact of AI on product development
- Open source vs closed source business models
- Niche markets vs broad markets
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- Age and experience perspectives in tech

Timestamps:
0:00 The story - why we wanted to start this show
2:03 Meet your hosts - Justin Jackson & Brian Casel
2:45 Topics we'll cover
3:32 The power of different perspectives
4:18 We need your help
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Brian Casel - Host
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