[00:01:00] Josh's Journey from Ads to Lunches Josh reflects on spending $30,000/month on Google Ads while rationing himself to 2-3 lunches per month, viewing lunches as obstacles to business rather than productive time. Over time, he noticed the more lunches he did, the better his business performed in every way.

[00:02:00] The Silent Movie Test Mark admits that despite constantly preaching "value relationships" to his coaching community, watching the silent movie of his week wouldn't lead someone to conclude he truly values relationships. The question becomes: what would it actually look like to value relationships?

[00:03:00] The 10 Lunches Per Month Goal Mark reflects on Josh's goal of 10 lunches per month—at first thinking "that's not even a lot," then realizing it's a lunch every other workday, representing significant investment of energy in outreach and follow-up.

[00:04:00] Hiring a VA to Schedule Lunches Josh jokes about being too lazy to learn Calendly, so his firm is hiring a VA in Colombia whose job will be to schedule lunches. The hard part isn't having lunch—it's the scheduling logistics.

[00:05:00] Beyond Lunches: The Relational Spectrum Josh suggests lunches are just one way to value relationships. He observes Mark bringing relational (not transactional) energy to coaching calls—not pressuring clients or upselling, which has led to long-term client relationships that naturally produce more transactions.

[00:06:00] Bringing Relational Energy to What You Already Do Mark confirms he actively promotes bringing relational energy to coaching delivery. It generates more transactions in the long term, more easily. Josh agrees: in almost any domain beyond door-to-door sales, relational energy works better than transactional.

[00:07:00] The Traffic Case Example Josh describes taking calls about traffic cases he'll never get hired for. Instead of avoiding them or pushing for a sale, he spends 20 minutes actively discouraging them from hiring him and telling them exactly how to avoid insurance increases. Result: five amazing Google reviews in recent months.

[00:08:00] Generosity as Synonym for Relationship Josh suggests "generosity" might be a synonym for "relationship." Mark's primary marketing strategy for his first five years: find where his people would be, show up generously and relationally (never pitching), and it just worked.

[00:09:00] The Booth Sponsorship Story Mark recalls spending thousands on event sponsorships. One booth paid zero dividends—except connecting with another sponsor who invited him to lunch with 7-8 people, six of whom later hired him. The sponsorship only worked by creating relational connection.

[00:10:00] The Dorky Golf Shirt Mark laughs remembering his dorky branded golf shirt at his booth table, standing there "begging people for email addresses." His colleague/friend teased him about it for years. All he really needed was to seek rapport with people in attendance.

[00:11:00] Table Stakes vs. The Real Work Josh emphasizes: paying for the event and getting a professional logo are just table stakes to get in the room. The question is how you act once you're there. Spending excessive energy on transactional pieces (like flyer wording) is mostly wasted.

[00:12:00] Finding Your People Josh clarifies: it's not about valuing ALL relationships over ALL transactions—the RIGHT relationships are worth many transactions. When you find your people, it works naturally. When they're not your people, no amount of investment helps. Move on from wrong-fit relationships quickly.

[00:14:00] Obliquity: Goals Achieved Indirectly Mark introduces "Obliquity"—a book they both own but haven't read—with the thesis that all goals are best achieved obliquely. You can't pursue certain things directly; you have to approach them indirectly.

[00:15:00] The Nobel Prize Example Josh offers an example: you can't campaign for a Nobel Prize openly and win it. You can only win by trying to do really good things, which then lead to a Nobel Prize. Similarly, you can't pitch transactions directly in many situations—build relationships and let people self-identify as wanting what you have.

[00:16:00] Religious Paradoxes & Groundhog Day Josh connects this to religious paradoxes: "seek your life, lose it; lose your life in service, gain it." Also the yin-yang principle of passing through disorder to reach order. Then introduces the "Ned Ryerson Test" from Groundhog Day—the insurance salesman who's obnoxiously transactional every morning.

[00:17:00] The Walking Group Origin Story Josh shares his grandfather's story: at 94, still walking by the Santa Monica beach. For years Josh thought his grandpa "found" a walking group—then realized his grandpa CREATES walking groups wherever he goes by striking up conversations with people he sees twice on the same path.

[00:18:00] The Apartment Complex Deal During one walk, a walking group member mentioned he bought an apartment building but his management company was terrible. Josh's grandfather said "I have a management company"—he didn't; he just had a son with a finance degree. They created a company to manage it, leading to a whole business. No pre-planning, just generous relationship-building.

[00:19:00] Reconciling "Be Open" with "Move On" Mark raises the tension between being told to pursue all relationships openly versus being told to move on from wrong-fit relationships. How do we reconcile these seemingly conflicting ideas?

[00:20:00] Article of Faith #2: I Am Generous with My Tribe Josh introduces the second article of faith: "I am generous with my tribe." The key is YOU get to pick who's in your tribe. People who aren't generous or who take advantage don't stay in the tribe long-term—they might get a trial version, but won't remain.

[00:21:00] Peer-Level Relationships Josh reiterates preferring relationships with perceived peers—not people way ahead (where he becomes a "panicked puppy") or way behind (who act like he's a sage calling him their "mentor"). He wants reciprocal relationships where both people can help each other.

[00:22:00] Do I Like Who I Am Around Them? Mark highlights a key filter Josh mentioned: determine if you're around the right people by asking "Do I like who I am around them?" Not just "Do I like who they are around me," but "Am I at my best? Do I like who I was in that interaction?"

[00:23:00] The Undermining Friend Josh shares an example: someone he loves who's become very negative and undermining around him. He's decided not to spend as much time with them right now—not because he dislikes them, but because it's harder to be who he wants to be around them.

[00:24:00] Cultivating the Spirit of Hosting Josh proposes cultivating a "spirit of hosting" rather than asking "what can this person do for me?" His wife is an amazing hostess who plans parties, thinks about guests' experiences, senses when it's time for another activity. At lunch, Josh thinks "How can I host them?" rather than "How can I get referrals?"

[00:25:00] The Art of Gatheri...

[00:01:00] Mom's One Call a Day Program Josh shares an early memory: his mom created a "one call a day" program for his dad when he transitioned from real estate to teaching. She ordered the Wall Street Journal and required him to find an interesting story each day to share with someone he already knew—not to ask for anything, just to connect. Within two weeks, a significant deal opportunity came through.

[00:02:00] The Frequency Principle Josh explains that big outcome changes don't require huge new initiatives like TV advertising. Instead, changing the things we do most frequently has the biggest impact. Stay in touch with people you already know—they'll introduce you to more people and it feeds itself.

[00:03:00] Consistency Beats Strategy The core principle: strategy matters less than consistency over a long period. Choose a networking activity you can sustain long-term. For Josh, lunch is joyful—if he doesn't enjoy lunch with someone, he removes them from his list without guilt.

[00:04:00] The Giftology Problem Josh read "Giftology" by John Ruhlin about gifts as a networking strategy, but found himself spending too much energy figuring out the right gift. He couldn't consistently think of good gifts that weren't creepy. If he has an idea for a gift, he sends it, but it's not sustainable as a primary strategy—there's a difference between sincere relationships and trades.

[00:05:00] Hoarding Possibility Mark shares a conversation with a client about their shared anxiety: "hoarding opportunity." She identifies the most likely people to accept invitations but won't invite them because she fears exhausting the possibilities. Josh doesn't hoard—he returns to his original list repeatedly because possibilities are never exhausted with people who already like and trust each other.

[00:06:00] The Exhausting Bummer Josh admits he cut one person from his list—someone he sincerely loves but who exhausts him at lunch. He didn't announce it; he just stopped inviting him. Josh emphasizes you can always add or remove people from your list based on how the relationship feels.

[00:07:00] Six-Person Lunches vs. One-on-One Josh explains he has no hopes for six-person lunches in terms of deep connection—they might help him identify someone for a one-on-one lunch later, but his "jam" is one-on-one lunches where real depth can happen.

[00:08:00] The Intense Prosecutor Lunch Josh describes a recent lunch with a former prosecutor from a contentious case years ago. After technical questions about starting a law firm, the conversation became intense—discussing kids, religion, faith struggles. That kind of depth is difficult with six people having parallel conversations about BYU football nearby.

[00:09:00] The Weekly Reminder Spike A personal injury friend tracked referral probability and found a huge spike when spending time with someone in the week before. Even people who know you well need reminders to have you front-of-mind. Josh questions whether going to lunch with the same person after just two months is selfish, but remembers this statistic and trusts it'll work out.

[00:10:00] Why Not 800 Relationships? Mark asks why investing in 80 relationships is better than 800. Josh explains anthropological research on tribe size: tribes don't exceed 150 people because adding each person exponentially increases the number of relationships (151st person creates 151 new relationships as they integrate with everyone).

[00:11:00] The Dunbar Number & Gore-Tex Gore-Tex keeps business units under 150 people for this reason. Malcolm Gladwell's "The Tipping Point" discusses people good at cultivating weak ties—some might maintain 200, others 40 or 90. But 800? That's a different strategy requiring different depth.

[00:12:00] The Greatest Networker Story Mark shares an anecdote about a friend who met an incredible networker—someone with a "PhD in networking" who makes everyone feel special but sends potentially hundreds of "hey, how you doing?" texts daily. It seems to work, but it requires constant phone attention.

[00:13:00] The Chiropractor Experiment Years ago, Josh tried starting a personal injury practice by cold-calling and lunching with chiropractors twice a week. In four months they had 15-20 cases, but Josh realized he hated lunching with chiropractors.

[00:14:00] Compassion vs. Fake Compassion Josh returns to his sister's social work training: compassion isn't fatiguing—faking compassion is fatiguing. Most people have a number of relationships they can maintain sincerely without faking it. The "hundreds of texts" guy might have five times Josh's capacity, but Josh chooses joyful lunches that actually make him happier.

[00:15:00] How to Start: Search Your Calendar Step one: search your calendar for "lunch" and write down everyone you've lunched with in the last five years. If they've already gone to lunch with you, they're already "in the club." Send a very short yes-or-no invitation: "I'll be by your office on the 24th. Can I buy you lunch?"

[00:16:00] Short Messages Mean Right Mindset Mark notes the wisdom in short messages—longer messages suggest wrong mindset. If someone feels they need to pre-sell something, their intent is actually transactional. They want something beyond lunch, like sharing an "exciting new opportunity."

[00:17:00] The Meditation Approach Josh compares lunch to meditation: his brain will think of ways the person can help him, but he notices those thoughts and chooses not to focus on them. During lunch, even when his body says "let's ask for referrals," he says "we're not doing that." They know what he does—that's fine.

[00:18:00] 80-90% Yes Rate & Costly Signaling Josh gets an 80-90% yes rate with short invitations. Most lawyers respond (it's reputationally risky not to), and most say yes. He insists on paying despite objections—no meal price is too high for relationship value. He approaches lunches as a host, using "costly signaling" upfront to show he's not a taker, then allowing reciprocity over time.

[00:19:00] The Senator Story & Sycophantic Dwight Josh admits he doesn't lunch with people way ahead or way behind him in their careers. At a law school reception with Utah's senior senator, he became "a panicked puppy" and didn't like that version of himself. He says he's "sycophantic a little bit" in those situations—"like Dwight Schrute."

[00:20:00] The Over-the-Top Compliment Problem With people way behind him, if they treat him as an equal, he's happy to lunch. But if they're overly flattering, it's uncomfortable. One lawyer stops clients in court to tell them Josh "walks on water"—well-intentioned but hard to trust the sincerity.

[00:21:00] Getting on the List If someone reaches out, Josh always goes once with relatively low expectations. He also asks for introductions (not client referrals): "I'm looking to meet pickleball-playing divorce lawyers in South Jordan—do you know anybody?" After lunch, he leaves a Google review or sends a thank you note.

[00:22:00] The 10 Lunches a Month Metric Josh tries for 10 lunches per month, tracked by his paralegal M...

[00:01:00] Josh's Philosophy: Keep It Simple Mark introduces Josh's philosophy around business development, emphasizing that solutions are usually simpler than we think. The challenge isn't creating complexity—it's consistently executing simple strategies.

[00:03:00] Discovering Lunch as Strategy Josh shares his passion for lunch and how it took him years to realize it was the most useful thing for his law practice. He noticed correlations between lunches, referrals, and his energy levels—realizing lunch is "the whole thing."

[00:04:00] Brief Career History Josh recounts starting his firm in 2009, spending up to $35,000/month on Google Ads, and studying successful lawyers Aaron Miller and Kyler Overt who didn't advertise but had busy, high-margin practices.

[00:05:00] Finding the Right Habit After copying others' strategies (Jazz tickets, BNI networking), Josh discovered his natural habit was lunch. He kept a daily journal and noticed his best days always featured good lunches.

[00:06:00] The Awkward Referral Ask Josh describes receiving sales training that said you must ask for referrals, his uncomfortable attempt to follow that advice, and his decision to never do it again. This led him to find a different approach.

[00:07:00] Lunch as Cultural Shortcut to Trust Josh explains why lunch is uniquely powerful: eating together is a massive shortcut to trust across almost every culture. It signals externally that you trust someone and internally that you care about them.

[00:08:00] The Real Estate Empire Story Josh's dad told him about a man who built a real estate fortune by flying across the country for lunches, insisting "you gotta eat" when people tried to brush him off—putting flights and meals on his Amex to build relationships.

[00:09:00] The COVID Transition In 2017, Josh decided to become a referral-based business but couldn't turn off the ads. COVID forced him to shut them off due to closed courts. After three months of silence, the courts reopened and the phone rang constantly—without any ad spend.

[00:10:00] Ads Were Crowding Out Referrals Josh realized that while revenue stayed stable, profit improved dramatically after cutting ads. The ads were actually crowding out referral opportunities, and removing them allowed referrals to fill in quickly.

[00:11:00] The Hidden Costs of Ads Beyond financial costs, ads require doing 4x as many consultations per client, more reception staff, and create significant energy drain. The true ROI was much lower than the 3:1 financial return suggested.

[00:12:00] Attribution is Hard Most clients do multiple touches before calling—Google search, friend recommendation, podcast, etc. Attribution models oversimplify what's really a synergistic journey, making it hard to isolate what actually works.

[00:13:00] Ads Are Like Drugs Mark notes that ads are viewed as a "money faucet" but observes that the non-financial costs—including stress—make them harder to justify long-term, despite appearing profitable on paper.

[00:14:00] Three Types of Marketing Josh outlines small business marketing options: awareness ads (billboards, TV), direct response ads (Google Ads), and relationship-based referrals. Each has different moats and defensive characteristics.

[00:15:00] The Moat Problem with Direct Response While awareness ads and referral relationships are defensible and valuable, direct response ads have no moat—competitors can copy your text ads, and Google captures most of the value through auction dynamics.

[00:16:00] How Does Lunch Create Referrals? Mark asks the core question: if Josh doesn't ask for referrals, how does lunch actually generate them? Josh begins explaining his mindset and approach.

[00:17:00] The Whole Network Gets Richer Josh's core belief: when people in a network trust each other and know each other's specialties, everyone benefits. It's not zero-sum—specialization helps the entire ecosystem thrive.

[00:18:00] Compassion Fatigue Isn't Real Josh shares his sister's insight from social work training: compassion is energizing, not fatiguing. What's actually exhausting is fake compassion—pretending to care about clients you resent.

[00:19:00] The Practice of Redirecting Thoughts Josh describes his lunch practice: when he catches himself thinking self-centered thoughts (needing referrals, feeling jealous), he consciously redirects to focus on the other person and identify something he admires about them.

[00:20:00] Finding What You Admire Even with potential clients discussing crimes, Josh chooses to focus on their positive qualities—like being an unselfish parent worried about family impact. This creates energizing, connecting conversations.

[00:21:00] Authentic vs. Transactional Mark distinguishes that Josh hasn't criticized transactional approaches—he's identified them as inauthentic to him personally. Different approaches work for different people, but Josh can't ask for referrals without feeling terrible.

[00:22:00] Transactional is a Spectrum Josh reframes: it's not binary (transactional vs. not). He only lunches with lawyers who can refer business, but that doesn't mean he doesn't genuinely care. It's about how much you're willing to deposit before expecting return.

[00:23:00] Costly Signaling Builds Trust From Rory Sutherland's "Alchemy": costly signaling (flying to Chicago for lunch, bread service at restaurants) shows you're willing to invest without immediate return, building trust by caring more about relationship than transaction.

[00:24:00] The One Type of Referral Josh Asks For Josh does ask for introductions to other lawyers: "Would that be a good introduction for you?" Most people are happy to facilitate and it often gives them an excuse to reconnect with someone.

[00:25:00] The Black Box of Strategy vs. Execution Mark highlights the key insight: having a transactional strategy while not acting transactionally during execution. Josh's strategy is transactional (lunches drive revenue), but his execution is pure giving and presence.

[00:26:00] Walking and Chewing Gum Josh shares a conversation about mixed motivations: another lawyer told him "you can walk and chew gum at the same time"—lunches can build business AND be intrinsically valuable through kindness and generosity.

[00:27:00] The LinkedIn Spam Regret Josh recalls being convinced to do spammy LinkedIn outreach, feeling terrible about it afterward, and learning it violated his "no spam, be generous" policy. Permission: you don't have to ask for referrals at lunch.

[00:28:00] Mixed Motivations as Signal Mark reframes: mixed motivations might signal you're doing something enriching on multiple fronts. The tension isn't a problem to solve—it's the cost of that way of being, and it indicates you're on the right track.

[00:29:00] Let People Reciprocate Josh notes that people's desire to reciprocate is so strong that being hyper-generous without allowing return favors actually hurts relation...