This conversation is shorter than usual and will be featured in RevenueCat’s State of Subscription Apps report. Each episode in this series will explore one crucial topic and share actionable insights from top subscription app operators.

Top Takeaways:

🚀Turn every feature launch into a full-funnel growth engine
Don't just ship and announce. Coordinate each release across organic posts, landing pages, and refreshed ad creative simultaneously so earned attention compounds into paid efficiency.

💰 Train a custom GPT on your own winning ad copy
Feed your top and bottom performing Meta and Google copy into a custom GPT, then use it to rapidly translate brand messaging into proven high-performing ad formats. It turns institutional knowledge into a scalable creative tool.

🤖Directing AI agents is the new core marketing skill
The future of marketing isn't just using AI tools but directing agents to handle messaging, storyboarding, ad creation, and localization, all grounded in your creative taste and brand direction.

About Luke Harries:

🚀Growth / Engineering at ElevenLabs, is an AI research and product company transforming how we interact with technology. Their vision is to make communication and creation with technology seamless.

👋 LinkedIn

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:
[0:00] Introduction to Luke Harries, Growth Lead at ElevenLabs
[1:05] ElevenLabs' approach to growth through "growth engines"
[2:20] The power of AI to unlock viral moments during product launches
[3:34] How ElevenLabs maximizes attention through paid ads alongside earned media
[4:41] The role of AI in optimizing ad copy and creative for paid campaigns
[5:42] Balancing AI-generated content with UGC and in-house production
[7:32] Why ElevenLabs stays away from AI influencers for product endorsements
[8:51] Leveraging user-generated content (UGC) for effective campaigns
[10:30] How ElevenLabs plans to spend over $100M in paid ads and approach campaign scaling
[11:38] The importance of localization and segmentation in paid advertising
[12:56] How ElevenLabs measures success and uses data to adjust their budget allocation
[13:18] Blending brand-building with performance marketing
[14:53] The future of marketing with AI-driven creative direction
[16:39] How AI could enable solo founders to create billion-dollar startups
[17:45] ElevenLabs' upcoming product, Flows, and recruitment efforts

This conversation is shorter than usual and will be featured in RevenueCat’s State of Subscription Apps report. Each episode in this series will explore one crucial topic and share actionable insights from top subscription app operators.

Top Takeaways:

📲Distribution is the moat, not code
As AI lowers the barrier to building apps, it raises the barrier to getting discovered. More software competing for attention means user acquisition becomes harder and more expensive, not easier.

🛡️Use AI to defend against copycats, not just to build faster
Use AI to scan the app store daily for copycat apps, monitor rising competitors, and track their ads. Build automated defense processes that keep you ahead of clones.

📊App economy disruption won't happen as fast as everyone thinks
No-code tools, game engines like Unity, and now vibe coding have all promised to democratize app building. None eliminated the real barriers: distribution, product intuition, and the compounding advantage of iterating on user feedback over years.

About Eric Seufert:

🚀 Founder of Mobile Dev Memo, a mobile advertising and freemium monetization trade blog.

👋 LinkedIn

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:
[0:00] Introduction to Eric Seufert, Founder of Mobile Dev Memo
[1:00] Why disruption in the app economy is taking longer than expected
[2:00] The real barrier to app success: Distribution over code
[3:15] How AI is reshaping app development and marketing
[4:30] Eric’s thoughts on why AI won’t eliminate the need for great apps
[5:45] Standing out in a saturated app market: How to break through
[7:00] The role of customer feedback in driving growth
[8:15] Why vibe coding isn’t sustainable for scalable app development
[9:30] Using AI defensively against copycats in the app economy
[10:45] The importance of scalable user acquisition strategies
[12:00] The long-term impact of AI on app monetization
[13:15] Balancing revenue and user experience in app monetization
[14:30] Why building a successful app requires technical expertise and distribution
[15:45] The evolving app economy and AI’s future role in scaling
[17:00] Closing thoughts on staying competitive in an ever-changing market

This conversation is shorter than usual and will be featured in RevenueCat’s State of Subscription Apps report. Each episode in this series will explore one crucial topic and share actionable insights from top subscription app operators.

Top Takeaways:

🎯 Product-driven retention is the foundation for lifecycle marketing
Lifecycle marketing hacks and perfect push notifications won't save you if the core product doesn't deliver results. Work backwards from what users say in five-star reviews to identify the results that matter, then build the product loop around consistently delivering those results.

📊 Teach features in the moment, not in onboarding
Users adopt features at far higher rates when coached during the action itself. In-context prompts while users are actively engaged are far more effective than FAQs or standalone tutorials.

⚡ Surveys beat user interviews for consumer product decisions
Individual interviews with five to ten users can lead you astray in diverse consumer markets. Large-scale recurring surveys provide stronger signal and reduce the risk of over-indexing on outlier feedback.

About Ben Gammon: 

🚀 VP of Product at Ladder, a fitness app dedicated to providing the world's best strength training plan from the world's best coaches, every single day.

👋 LinkedIn

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:
[0:00] Introduction to Ben Gammon, VP of Product at Ladder
[1:08] Ben explains product-driven retention at Ladder
[1:55] Retention is the key metric for Ladder's success
[2:50] Activation: Work backward from user results to simplify the experience
[3:53] Introducing the journal feature to track progress and boost retention
[6:10] The journal as a reinforcement loop for ongoing user engagement
[6:37] The widget: A powerful external tool for retention and reminders
[7:30] Using subconscious interactions with the widget to maintain user engagement
[8:09] Balancing user feedback with business goals and company vision
[9:23] Collecting feedback through chat, surveys, and AI tools
[10:19] Using feedback to create a positive feedback loop for improvements
[11:47] Nutrition tracking: The next major retention challenge
[14:15] Hybrid users (workout + nutrition) show higher retention rates
[15:03] Secondary product-market fit: How nutrition complements fitness goals
[17:03] User expectations vs. behavior: Asking for features but not always using them
[18:08] AI and data help guide product iteration and decision-making
[19:02] Ladder's vision for product expansion and retention growth
[19:33] Ben discusses building a product-first team and a strong culture
[20:01] Closing thoughts on user-focused product development

This conversation is focused on RevenueCat’s State of Subscription Apps report.
 
Head to https://www.revenuecat.com/state-of-subscription-apps to download the report.

Top Takeaways:

📊 The app economy is a sorting machine
The top 10% of apps grew 306% while the median grew just 5.3%, and that gap is only widening as AI raises the ceiling for the best-positioned apps.

💰 Hard paywalls crush freemium on conversion, but context matters
Hard paywalls convert five times better than freemium (10.7% vs 2.1% download-to-paid by day 35) with nearly identical year-one retention, but freemium remains the right call when free users drive word of mouth, network effects, or long-term brand scale.

⚡ Day zero is your best shot at converting a user
The first session is when users decide both whether to pay and whether to stay. The majority of trial cancellations happen on day zero, meaning users who don't see value immediately rarely come back to find it.

🤖 AI apps sell, but they don't stick 
AI-powered apps generate 41% more revenue per customer but people churn 30% faster. Apps that solve that retention problem early will own their category; those that don't are just riding a wave of consumer curiosity.

📈 The App Store is experiencing a supply shock
The number of new subscription apps launching each month has grown 7X since 2022, creating a hyper-competitive environment where distribution, not just features, is the primary barrier to success.

About RevenueCat: 

🚀Jacob Eiting, CEO at RevenueCat.

👋LinkedIn

🚀David Barnard, Growth Advocate at RevenueCat.

👋LinkedIn

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:
[0:27] Unpacking the key findings from the 2026 State of Subscription Apps Report
[2:52] How “vibe coding” and new AI development tools have dramatically lowered the barrier to building apps
[5:42] The emerging “supply shock” in the app economy as cheaper development leads to a flood of new apps competing for the same users
[20:13] Breaking down the SOSA report methodology and why low-traffic apps were excluded from the dataset
[21:57] Why the report separates AI apps from non-AI apps—and how AI apps tend to generate higher revenue per paying user
[23:15] The explosion of new subscription apps, with launches increasing roughly 7× since 2022
[25:33] Why iOS now accounts for about 77% of new subscription app launches, and what that says about platform economics
[30:19] The “power law” reality of the app economy: the top 10% of apps grew 306%, while the median app barely grew
[39:20] A key finding from the report: hard paywalls convert about five times better than freemium models
[45:42] Trial behavior insights: over half of free-trial cancellations happen on day zero
[47:40] The “billion-dollar leak” on Google Play: a large share of cancellations come from involuntary billing failures
[51:21] The AI app paradox: AI apps generate higher revenue per payer but also churn faster than traditional apps
[54:51] Why longer free trials appear to convert better—and why the data may reflect correlation rather than causation
[1:00:54] How AI agents could change how developers analyze subscription business data

This conversation is shorter than usual and will be featured in RevenueCat’s State of Subscription Apps report. Each episode in this series will explore one crucial topic and share actionable insights from top subscription app operators.

Top Takeaways:

🎯 Measure brand campaigns by search uplift, not cost per install
Comparing offline and other brand campaign CPAs to paid acquisition CPAs kills creativity before it starts. Track branded search lift and run awareness surveys instead.

📹Design every offline moment for online distribution
Bring ad creatives to your events and plan for UGC from the start. An in-person activation that reached 15,000 people generated over 4 million impressions once repurposed across ads, social, and even LinkedIn.

⚠️Celebrity reach without audience fit is wasted spend
A famous partner whose audience doesn't overlap with your ICP will move zero needles. Calm's LeBron James partnership was their most expensive and worst-performing campaign because his fans care about basketball, not better sleep.

About Larissa Morimoto: 

🚀 Senior Growth Manager (Special Projects) at PhotoRoom, the best AI photo and design platform for e-commerce.

👋 LinkedIn

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:
[0:00] Introduction to Larissa Morimoto, Senior Growth Manager at PhotoRoom
[1:10] Why PhotoRoom is turning to offline marketing for growth
[2:35] How offline experiences create real human connections with users
[3:50] The importance of building brand love over chasing growth metrics
[5:10] Turning offline interactions into user-generated content (UGC)
[6:25] Why UGC is a key driver of PhotoRoom's digital strategy
[7:40] The success of PhotoRoom’s London campaign and key learnings
[9:05] How PhotoRoom uses creative campaigns to amplify brand awareness
[10:20] The role of brand awareness in scaling beyond paid acquisition
[12:15] Balancing offline and online efforts to maximize ROI
[13:05] How PhotoRoom’s focus on emotional connections leads to long-term growth
[13:45] The impact of celebrity partnerships and influencer marketing on brand perception
[15:01] PhotoRoom’s strategy for turning offline events into online assets
[16:20] Why PhotoRoom believes in repurposing content from offline campaigns for digital platforms
[17:05] The importance of testing and experimenting with new marketing strategies
[18:02] PhotoRoom’s creative offline campaigns
[19:29] Larissa shares upcoming initiatives and job openings at PhotoRoom

This conversation is shorter than usual and will be featured in RevenueCat’s State of Subscription Apps report. Each episode in this series will explore one crucial topic and share actionable insights from top subscription app operators.

Top Takeaways:

🎯Web funnels should sell the problem, not the solution
App onboarding works by rushing users to an "aha moment" because they already want a solution. Web audiences are higher in the consideration phase, so effective web funnels go deeper on helping users recognize and personalize the problem before introducing the product.

💰Discounted paid trials outperform free trials on web
Rise found that offering a heavily discounted first month instead of a free trial improves both conversion quality and ad optimization. Free trials often attract users who cancel immediately, polluting the signal that ad platforms use to find high-value customers.

🎨Creative that flops on app campaigns can crush it on web, and vice versa
Web funnels attract a different audience than app install campaigns, often older and more e-commerce minded. Rise runs creative across both channels separately and regularly finds winners on one side that failed on the other, effectively doubling the chances of finding a hit from every creative concept.

About Leon Sasson: 

🚀 Leon is Co-Founder and CTO at Rise Science. RISE is the first energy management app that makes it easy to improve your sleep and daily energy to reach your potential. 

👋 LinkedIn

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:

[0:00] Introduction to Leon Sasson, Co-Founder & CTO at Rise Science
[1:05] Leon discusses the evolution of web funnels and their unique challenges
[2:10] The difference between app onboarding and web onboarding strategies
[3:15] How Leon’s team pivoted to improve web funnels and found success
[4:25] The shift in consumer behavior: Web audiences vs. app users
[5:50] Insights on why discounted paid trials work better than free trials on the web
[7:00] Balancing the user experience with a smooth billing process
[8:20] How to test and optimize creatives for both web and app funnels
[9:35] Leon’s approach to personalizing funnels based on user personas
[10:40] Lessons learned from handling subscription billing outside Apple’s ecosystem [11:55] The future of hybrid monetization and web/app funnel strategies 
[12:30] Closing thoughts on evolving marketing and product strategies through testing and iteration

This conversation is shorter than usual and will be featured in RevenueCat’s State of Subscription Apps report. Each episode in this series will explore one crucial topic and share actionable insights from top subscription app operators.

Top Takeaways:

🤖Users need fewer options, not more
Decision overload kills conversion. Tinder saw multimillion-dollar annual revenue gains by using ML to predict and surface the single best product for each user instead of showing every tier and plan at once.

🎯Anchor a la carte prices to subscriptions to prevent cannibalization
Unbundling features can capture non-subscribers, but pricing too low steals from subscription revenue. Tinder priced its standalone Passport feature equal to the weekly equivalent of a full-featured subscription, making the subscription the obvious better deal.

🧠 Design for emotional decisions, not logical ones
Users don't read every feature comparison and weigh their options rationally. They decide in seconds based on feeling. Observe how users actually behave, not how you assume they should, and build your purchase flows around that.

About Shawn Gong:

 🚀 Product Growth & Monetization at  Tinder, the world's most popular dating app, with over 55 billion matches made across 190+ countries since launching in 2012.

👋 LinkedIn

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:
[0:00] Introduction to Shawn Gong, Product Leader in Monetization & Growth at Tinder
[1:05] The challenge of decision overload and how Tinder tackled it with dynamic pricing
[2:47] How machine learning helps Tinder predict and serve the right product for each user
[4:25] Simplifying user choices: Reducing overwhelming options for better conversion
[5:48] Shifting from static to dynamic pricing: The role of AI in optimizing Tinder’s paywall
[7:06] A/B testing the dynamic pricing model: How Tinder validated the ML model's effectiveness
[8:12] Unbundling features like Passport mode: Meeting specific user needs without subscriptions
[9:33] The impact of pricing changes on conversion rates and subscription cannibalization
[10:57] Long-term retention metrics: Measuring the success of dynamic pricing beyond just revenue
[12:00] Tinder Select: Lessons from launching a high-end tier and why it didn’t work
[13:18] The importance of aligning product offerings with user emotions for better decision-making
[14:25] How Tinder continues to optimize pricing strategies through iterative testing and learning
[15:48] Shawn’s advice for startup founders: Focus on retention and building better product decision design

This conversation is shorter than usual and will be featured in RevenueCat’s State of Subscription Apps report. Each episode in this series will explore one crucial topic and share actionable insights from top subscription app operators.

Top Takeaways:

💰 Retest prices you've already ruled out 
Market conditions shift constantly. A price point that couldn't beat the control for years can suddenly break even as competitors raise prices and consumer expectations change.

📈A higher base price unlocks more aggressive discounting Going from $40 to $80 creates room for steeper percentage discounts that drive higher conversion, even when the absolute dollar price is still higher.

🔒Rising CACs demand pricing that funds acquisition At $40/year, paid UA math barely worked. Doubling the price gave the marketing team room to compete on acquisition channels where costs keep climbing.

About Patrick Rills: 

🚀 Chief Product & Technology Officer at Lose It!, the app-based weight loss program mobilizing the world to achieve a healthy weight.

👋 LinkedIn

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:
[0:00] Introduction to Patrick Rills, Chief Product & Technology Officer at Lose It!
[1:05] How pricing changes unlocked new growth opportunities at Lose It!
[2:12] Balancing customer acquisition costs (CAC) with retention through pricing strategy
[3:25] Key insights from years of price testing, ranging from $5 to $120 per year
[4:42] Raising prices to enable deeper discounting and improve conversions
[5:58] Aligning product value with pricing to retain loyal users
[7:06] The role of the freemium model in keeping users engaged after price increases
[8:02] Using smart pricing and AI to drive growth
[9:14] Leveraging data to fine-tune pricing decisions
[10:27] How customer feedback and product data shape pricing strategies
[11:38] Challenges and benefits of raising prices for an established product
[12:33] Future plans for pricing tiers and new monetization strategies
[13:18] Patrick shares iOS developer hiring opportunities at Lose It!
[13:41] Final thoughts on driving sustainable growth and user value

This conversation is shorter than usual and will be featured in RevenueCat’s State of Subscription Apps report. Each episode in this series will explore one crucial topic and share actionable insights from top subscription app operators.

Top Takeaways:

🎯 Prioritize clarity over persuasion on your paywalls
Show users a timeline of exactly what happens during their trial, when they'll be charged, and how refunds work. Duolingo found that removing uncertainty about the purchase process drives more conversions than trying to sell harder.

⚡Shorter trials compound experimentation velocity
Cutting their free trial from 14 days to 7 doubled Duolingo's experimentation velocity. Faster feedback loops let the team kill losing tests sooner and run significantly more experiments per quarter.

🔬Adding friction to trial reminders can boost conversions 
Duolingo tested letting users pick which day they get their expiration reminder. The extra step signaled transparency, built trust that they wouldn't be surprised by a charge, and gave them time to experience real value before deciding.

About Anmol Tiwari:

🚀 Director of Product Management at Duolingo, the world's most popular way to learn a language.

👋 LinkedIn

🖥️Carers at Duolingo

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:
[0:00] Introduction to Anmol Tiwari, Director of Product at Duolingo
 [1:05] Anmol discusses Duolingo’s focus on clarity in free trials and product offerings
 [2:10] How transparency in trial terms and refunds builds confidence and boosts conversions
 [3:45] The benefits of shorter trials for faster experimentation and better user engagement
 [5:10] Why Duolingo offers multiple trials to cater to different user life stages
 [6:30] Using machine learning to personalize subscription offers and in-app ads
 [7:40] How Duolingo uses contextual paywalls to increase conversions
 [8:50] Regional differences in trial strategies, especially in markets like China
 [10:10] The impact of "free tastes" and trial-like experiences in premium tiers
 [11:30] Using timers and reward-based copy to clearly communicate trial benefits
 [13:00] How Duolingo reduces day-zero cancellations and builds trust with users
 [14:15] Personalizing paywalls based on individual user behavior
 [15:30] Experimenting with new creative strategies to promote subscriptions
 [16:40] The role of AI in optimizing engagement and conversions
 [17:50] Understanding global trial preferences, particularly in China
 [19:10] How trust drives conversions and prevents cancellations
 [19:55] Closing thoughts on how transparency, experimentation, and personalization fuel growth

This conversation is shorter than usual and will be featured in RevenueCat’s State of Subscription Apps report. Each episode in this series will explore one crucial topic and share actionable insights from top subscription app operators.

Top Takeaways:

🌍Show free users a paywall every week after onboarding
Triggering a paywall on app open once per week for free users drove 15% of new revenue with no backlash. The more generous your free tier, the more users tolerate the ask.

💪A winning paywall in one region can completely fail in another
A long, detail-rich paywall lifted revenue 20% in Japan but flopped in the US, where cleaner designs with punchy copy outperformed. Always retest winners in each market before rolling out globally.

⚡Experiment velocity is a huge unlock for revenue optimization
Running parallel paywall tests across geo segments on a weekly cadence compounds gains fast. More iterations mean shorter feedback loops, faster learning, and fewer months leaving revenue on the table.

About Michal Parizek

🚀 Senior Growth Product Manager at Mojo, a mobile-first content creation platform that empowers businesses and creators to produce professional, animated social media content in minutes.

👋 LinkedIn

Episode Highlights:
[0:00] Introduction to Michal Parizek, Senior Growth Product Manager at Mojo
[1:02] How Mojo achieved a 60% increase in average revenue per user
[2:16] The impact of paywall design experiments on Mojo's revenue
[3:31] Why the same paywall design worked in Japan but failed in the US
[4:45] Mojo’s global pricing strategies and the role of regional differences
[5:45] How Mojo optimized early revenue with the 7-day ARPU metric
[7:02] The role of customer feedback in shaping Mojo’s growth strategies
[8:15] Testing different pricing models: How Mojo decided on the $79 price point
[9:30] Why focusing on new revenue, rather than renewals, was crucial for Mojo’s growth
[10:45] The benefits of running paywall campaigns for existing users
[12:02] How Mojo balances customer experience with aggressive monetization strategies
[13:15] The importance of experiment velocity and fast iteration in scaling Mojo
[14:34] Surprising results: Mojo’s success with paywall strategies for existing users
[15:41] Closing thoughts on scaling an app with data-driven experimentation and customer focus

This conversation is shorter than usual and will be featured in RevenueCat’s State of Subscription Apps report. Each episode in this series will explore one crucial topic and share actionable insights from top subscription app operators.

Top Takeaways:

💸 Map your revenue history before running new experiments
Chart revenue across new subscribers, upgrades, renewals, and win-backs over time. Matching spikes and dips to past decisions reveals what actually moved the business and prevents you from re-learning expensive lessons.

🤫 Refunds and chargebacks are silent killers
A paywall “win” can quickly become a net negative if you aren’t tracking the downstream effects of cancellations, refunds, and chargebacks, which often hide the true cost of a seemingly successful experiment.

📈If your A/B test wins aren't showing up in top-line growth, something is wrong
Stacking 5% and 10% experiment wins should compound, but many teams see modest growth despite a long list of "winners". Set calendar reminders to recheck winning cohorts at 3 and 6 months, especially for price changes, to catch lifts that don't hold.

About Sara Grana: 

 🚀 Revenue Strategy Lead at Yousician, a revolutionary music platform for anyone to learn, play, create, and teach music. 

👋 LinkedIn

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:

[0:00] Introduction to Sara Grana, Revenue Strategy Lead at Yousician
[1:05] The importance of tracking experiments and business decisions in subscription apps
[2:19] Mapping revenue and understanding its evolution across different user segments
[3:06] Tracking revenue changes and connecting them to business decisions
[4:34] The pitfalls of focusing too much on early funnel metrics and ignoring long-term impacts
[5:26] The impact of chargebacks and refunds on paywall performance and customer retention
[7:20] Why understanding downstream effects is crucial for making smart pricing decisions
[8:44] The challenges and opportunities of introducing new subscription plans (e.g., lifetime subscriptions)
[9:43] How commercial strategy influences churn rates and renewals
[13:13] The importance of rechecking experiments after months to measure long-term impact
[14:52] Sara's advice on when to revisit experiments based on their impact on pricing and user behavior
[15:49] Tracking cohort data for subscription retention and understanding renewal trends
[16:21] Why surprising lifts in experiments may require deeper investigation
[17:13] The mismatch between short-term experiment results and long-term growth expectations
[18:02] Final thoughts on driving sustainable growth, tracking, and adapting strategies over time

This conversation is shorter than usual and will be featured in RevenueCat’s State of Subscription Apps report. Each episode in this series will explore one crucial topic and share actionable insights from top subscription app operators.

Top Takeaways: 

🚀 The app revenue boom isn't just about AI apps
Non-game in-app purchases grew 21% year over year, but only $3.5 billion came from generative AI. Billions more flowed into short dramas, social media, utilities, entertainment, and other categories.

💰 ChatGPT helped reset what consumers will pay 
Pre-AI, most consumer subscriptions topped out around $60 a year. ChatGPT normalized $20 a month, and usage-based pricing is pushing some users into hundreds monthly. AI apps monetize at 2x pre-AI ARPU.

🎯 Vertical, opinionated products beat thin AI wrappers 
Build deep products around a specific use case bigger platforms won't prioritize. The litmus test: your product should get better, not fear for its life, when the underlying models improve.

About Olivia Moore:

🚀 AI Partner at Andreessen Horowitz (a16z), a venture capital firm that backs bold entrepreneurs building the future through technology.

👋 LinkedIn

👋 @omooretweets on X

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:
[0:00] Introduction to Olivia Moore, AI Partner at Andreessen Horowitz
[1:05] Olivia discusses the role of AI in transforming startup growth strategies
[2:10] The importance of aligning product development with user needs and market demands
[3:15] How Olivia helps portfolio companies leverage AI to scale effectively
[4:25] The challenge of balancing innovation with user experience and feedback
[5:50] Olivia shares insights on identifying and seizing AI-driven market opportunities
[7:00] Navigating the complexities of integrating AI solutions into existing business models
[8:20] The importance of long-term growth strategies over quick wins
[9:35] Olivia talks about the evolving role of AI in user retention and engagement
[10:40] Discussing the ethical considerations of AI implementation in growth initiatives
[11:55] Olivia’s thoughts on the future of AI in the startup ecosystem
[12:30] Closing thoughts on driving innovation and growth through AI

Top Takeaways:

📱 Hardware-enabled subscriptions need daily usage to work 
Devices that sit unused make subscription value harder to justify, but products that become the heartbeat of daily routines (like a family calendar) naturally create subscription demand.

🎯 Stop optimizing when you should be building
Limited resources force careful prioritization, and sometimes the biggest wins come from building genuinely valuable features rather than running endless conversion experiments.

💰 Price based on customer emotion, not just data
Testing showed $99 would maximize revenue, but qualitative research revealed $79 felt fair while $99 approached "disgust territory," so they chose the lower price for long-term goodwill.

🏗️ Build a great product before scaling marketing
Skylight tried to scale Calendar in 2021-22 but the product wasn't ready, leading to wasted marketing spend and false negatives until they focused on getting to 40+ NPS first.

🛍️ Retail partnerships are the ultimate influencer
Being in Costco and Best Buy provides a stamp of quality that can't be underestimated, and multi-channel distribution drives higher overall growth despite lower subscription attach rates in some channels.

About Michael Segal & Mark Ungerer:

🚀 CEO, Skylight

📱 Michael Segal is the CEO of Skylight, a family tech company best known for its digital frames and calendars. Michael, a former venture capitalist, brings a unique perspective to Skylight’s growth strategy, focusing on balancing growth with profitability. He shares anecdotes about Skylight’s journey from hardware to subscription models, the importance of understanding customers' emotions about pricing, and how the team navigates the challenges of scaling both hardware and software.

👋 LinkedIn

🚀 CPO, Skylight

📱 Mark Ungerer is the Chief Product Officer at Skylight, where he leads product strategy, development, and design. With a keen focus on creating seamless user experiences, Mark discusses Skylight’s approach to subscriptions, how they test and refine features based on user feedback, and the key role retail partnerships play in building trust and credibility. 

👋 LinkedIn

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:
[0:00] The balance between growth and profit: Making decisions based on business goals
[3:22] Timing the introduction of subscriptions: Skylight's early adoption and consumer reception
[5:35] The hardware-enabled subscription boom: Market maturity and Skylight’s position
[8:00] Unique challenges of marketing hardware-enabled subscriptions: Overcoming consumer skepticism
[10:52] How Skylight integrates hardware with daily family life to drive subscription value
[12:47] Pricing strategy: The magic behind Skylight’s price increase and minimal subscriber loss
[17:43] Challenges in scaling growth: How Skylight navigates its multi-channel strategy
[24:15] Shifting from free trials to subscription: The evolution of Skylight’s approach to testing
[27:35] The importance of talking to customers: Using qualitative feedback to guide decisions
[30:00] Retail partnerships as a growth strategy
[33:45] Subscription dynamics: How pricing and subscription models shape Skylight’s business
[36:25] Scaling with limited resources: Skylight’s approach to growth without a dedicated growth PM
[38:40] Navigating hardware, software, and subscription moats
[42:00] Biggest win: The success of the $79 subscription price increase
[44:05] Biggest fail: Learning from free trial experiments and the need for more growth testing
[46:01] Growth would be easier with more resources and strategic price adjustments for wider market reach
[48:30] The importance of reducing friction in onboarding for increased conversions
[52:30] The challenges of balancing customer acquisition with retention efforts
[55:02] Skylight's vision for long-term customer value and growth
[57:45] The impact of reducing friction in purchasing: How simple changes can dramatically increase conversion rates
[59:10] Closing thoughts on growth strategy: Aiming for long-term success, not short-term wins

Top Takeaways:

📊Pricing should match how users think — not how AI works
One of the biggest wins came from simplifying pricing. For ElevenReader, selling listening time instead of tokens or credits dramatically improved clarity and conversion. Abstracting away AI complexity for consumers is not dumbing things down — it’s good product sense.

🏎️Small, autonomous “pods” enable speed to become the moat

Instead of one massive org, ElevenLabs operates like 10–12 startups inside the company. Small teams with full ownership can ship fast, iterate relentlessly, and make real product decisions without waiting on heavy processes — a critical edge in fast-moving AI markets.

💸Earned media compounds — and fuels paid performance

ElevenLabs treats launches as compounding assets. Each launch earns attention, which boosts branded search, improves paid efficiency, and makes future launches stronger. Growth isn’t just ads vs. organic — it’s a flywheel where story, brand, and performance reinforce each other.

🕊️Start launches with the “tweet thread,” not the feature
Before building launch assets, teams write the Twitter/X thread first. If a feature can’t be explained clearly and compellingly in a short narrative, it’s a red flag. This keeps teams focused on real user value instead of shipping “flashy but hollow” features.

🌐 Consumer apps are a strategic advantage for platform companies
ElevenLabs doesn’t see consumer apps as competing with its API customers — they’re a force multiplier. Being their own best customer helps them build better APIs, understand real user needs, and strengthen brand affinity across creators, consumers, and developers.

About Tanmay Jain & Jack McDermott

🚀 Mobile Growth Lead, ElevenLabs

📱 Tanmay Jain leads mobile growth for the core ElevenLabs app, focused on translating ElevenLabs’ powerful web + API capabilities into a mobile-native experience that’s simple, fast, and creative-first. He brings a founder mindset from previous roles (including Canva), and shares how ElevenLabs ships through small, autonomous pods — moving quickly, running experiments (like pricing + paywalls), and holding teams accountable to what actually improves the user experience.

👋 LinkedIn

🚀 Mobile Growth Lead, ElevenReader

📱 Jack McDermott leads mobile growth for ElevenReader, ElevenLabs’ consumer app that turns PDFs, articles, and books into lifelike audio — powered by a massive catalog of high-quality voices. He breaks down how ElevenLabs uses earned media to amplify paid performance, why launches start with the “tweet thread” narrative, and how simplifying pricing (selling listening time instead of tokens) can dramatically improve consumer conversion.

👋 LinkedIn

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:
[0:00] Why consumers won’t pay in “tokens” — they pay in outcomes

[2:13] The case for building consumer apps and an API (without competing with customers)

[4:10] ElevenLabs’ operating system: 10–12 “speedboat” pods shipping in parallel

[7:20] The Canva spin-out lesson: award-winning product ≠ distribution or retention

[12:07] Monetization that matches intent: “hours of listening” vs creator credits

[13:30] Two growth modes at once: compounding earned-media launches + steady paid UA

[16:27] Why earned media makes paid cheaper (branded search + trust lift)

[19:30] The launch playbook: write the Twitter thread first → turn it into a video

[32:20] “Speed is the moat” — and how they avoid shipping gimmicks

[36:57] Don’t copy Spotify Wrapped — find your product’s natural shareable moment

[43:31] ElevenReader’s “aha”: bring your own PDF/ebook + pick a voice worth sharing

[56:58] Biggest fail: over-optimizing onboarding instead of testing the “strip it back” base case

Top Takeaways:

💡 Protect the free moat — always
 Short-term revenue tricks like paywalling free features make metrics spike — then stall. Sustainable freemium growth depends on preserving free value. It’s not just ethical; it’s strategic. Pulling back too much invites competitors to offer what you took away, weakening both your brand and your growth loop.

🧪 A/B test relentlessly — but know when to lead with intuition
 Testing is essential, but not infallible. With 400+ experiments running at once, you’ll often see trade-offs between revenue and user experience. The art of product management is knowing when to ignore short-term data and make the long-term call that preserves user trust and helps achieve strategic goals.

🔁 Freemium is a growth engine, not a trade-off
 Your free users aren’t freeloaders — they’re your marketing engine. When you improve the free experience, you strengthen organic growth through word of mouth. Growth slows when you nickel-and-dime; it compounds when you delight.

💰 Monetize with empathy, not extraction
 Introducing monetization requires a cultural shift. The key is measuring everything — retention, reviews, complaints per DAU — and optimizing for user experience, not just ARPU. Test cautiously, communicate transparently, and say no to anything that erodes trust.

🧠 Build for everyone, not a persona
 In large-scale apps, personas can be counterproductive. People learn, play, and engage for wildly different reasons. Designing for inclusivity and broad appeal helps scale from millions to billions of users without alienating key segments.

💡 Strategic and Creative Use of Ads
 Ads at Duolingo were introduced carefully with the goal of balancing monetization with a positive user experience. The focus is on surfacing ads at non-intrusive moments, such as after completing a lesson, and on carefully controlling ad content. Duolingo even partners with advertisers to integrate elements of Duolingo branding into third-party ads. 

About Cem Kansu:

🚀Chief Product Officer at Duolingo

📱 Cem Kansu is the former VP of Product at Duolingo, where he led the company’s monetization strategy, introducing ads and subscriptions that turned Duolingo into a sustainable business. With deep expertise in product development and user experience, he helped grow subscriptions to over 80% of revenue, while keeping the core product free and mission-driven.

👋 LinkedIn

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:
[0:00] Cem discusses balancing profitability with long-term goals

[0:36] Duolingo’s first monetization strategy: ads

[2:02] The pivot from crowdsourcing translations to new monetization models

[3:49] Streak repair as Duolingo’s first in-app purchase experiment

[5:43] Shifting company culture to embrace monetization

[7:20] The influence of investors on Duolingo’s monetization

[8:00] Introducing ads without harming user experience

[10:31] Handling user complaints and data-driven adjustments

[12:07] Ensuring ad quality through strict control

[13:53] Direct ad partnerships to improve user experience

[16:30] Ads vs subscription: monetization strategy decision

[18:43] The impact of free trials on subscription growth

[20:22] Evolution of Duolingo’s subscription offerings

[22:39] Adding features like offline learning and ad-free experiences

[24:22] Pivoting from separate apps to integrating topics in one

[26:43] Overcoming design challenges to fit new topics

[28:55] Duolingo’s competition with other screen time apps

[32:00] Leveraging AI to enhance the language learning experience

[35:18] The role of AI in Duolingo’s growth

[37:32] Balancing free vs paid features for growth

[40:24] Decisions on adding/removing premium features

[43:35] Lessons from the failed human tutor feature

[45:10] Challenges in scaling a large product like Duolingo

[47:12] Long-term growth focus and user base expansion

[49:30] Design, testing, and iteration at Duolingo

[54:10] Ongoing improvements in learning efficacy and retention

[57:15] Duolingo’s future plans and expansion goals

💡 Focus on Product-Market Fit First
 Before jumping into monetization, ensure your product truly resonates with users. Building a product that solves a real problem and captures genuine interest is the foundation for sustainable growth. Once you achieve product-market fit, monetization becomes a natural extension.

🛠 Monetization Strategies Are Evolving
 Founders are being pushed to monetize early, but the key is to test different models and find what works for your user base. Experimenting with subscription tiers and paywalls can unlock new revenue streams while preserving a great user experience. This flexibility is crucial in today’s competitive app landscape.

🚀 Experimentation is the Key to Success
 The most successful apps are built through continuous experimentation and iteration. Constantly testing new ideas—whether in pricing, features, or user engagement tactics—helps you learn and adapt quickly. Fail fast, adjust, and keep pushing forward.

📊 Data-Driven Decisions Over Gut Instincts
 Rely on data to make smarter decisions, especially when it comes to monetization and growth strategies. Properly instrumenting your app and analyzing user behavior gives you the insights needed to refine your approach. Data-driven decisions remove the guesswork and lead to more reliable outcomes.

💬 User Feedback Drives Innovation
 Your users are the best source of inspiration. Listening to their feedback and adjusting your app based on real-world experience will improve your product and increase retention. The more connected you are to your community, the more likely your app will evolve in the right direction.

🔑 The Importance of Sustainable Growth
 Building a successful app requires more than just an initial win. To scale sustainably, it’s essential to focus on long-term user value and avoid over-monetizing too early. By balancing user experience with growth strategies, you can achieve steady, lasting success.

About Jeff Morris:

🚀 Founder and General Partner at Chapter One.

📱 Jeff Morris is the former VP of Product at Tinder, where he played a key role in driving the app’s revenue and user growth. As a venture capitalist, Jeff invests in early-stage companies developing products that resonate deeply with users. His expertise spans product development, monetization strategies, and scaling businesses in competitive markets.

👋 LinkedIn

👋 Follow Jeff Morris on X - @jmj

• Jeff’s “controversial” X post

🌎 The New Internet 

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:
[0:00] Jeff Morris’ background and expertise at Tinder
[2:20] Monetization vs. product building: A founder’s shift in focus
[4:53] Celebrating early revenue: Real or just hype?
[6:08] Freemium model: Boosting user engagement and retention
[9:01] Monetization strategies across app categories
[11:51] The venture landscape in 2025: Challenges & opportunities
[13:05] Why it’s still a great time to build mobile apps
[14:48] Creating a sustainable subscription model
[17:27] Early-stage AI startups: New monetization opportunities
[19:20] Tinder’s journey with pricing and packaging experiments
[22:02] The success of Tinder’s three-tier subscription model
[24:41] Balancing user experience with monetization
[26:45] The role of testing and iteration in revenue decisions
[29:40] Why revenue optimization needs constant attention
[31:53] The impact of paywall features on conversion
[33:54] The power of design in driving revenue and engagement
[36:21] The future of mobile and AI-native apps
[39:11] Scaling a mobile app in 2025: Key lessons for founders
[42:45] How funding partners shape your product vision
[44:21] The role of feedback loops in creative growth
[47:30] What Jeff would have done differently at Tinder
[50:11] Key takeaways from building and scaling a high-growth product
[54:45] User-centric design: Why monetization should never come first

Top Takeaways:

📊 Challenge Best Practices
 Test what works for your app and market, even if it goes against common advice. Adapt best practices to your data and current stage.

💡 Facts vs. Problems
 Low trial conversions aren’t always a problem—sometimes they’re just a fact of your setup. Only treat them as a problem after you’ve tested and ruled out other factors.

🎯 Quality Over Quantity in Creative Testing
 It’s not about testing hundreds of creatives—it’s about testing fewer, but with stronger hypotheses. Focus on creative iterations that drive high success rates, not just metrics.

⚖️ Strategic Control of Spend
 Set guardrails and adjust bids based on performance. Test spend limits, but always maintain control over your budget and its allocation.

💬 Be Inspired
 Learn from competitors, but don’t mimic their exact strategies. Customize based on your own data and target audience.

🔍 Instrument Your Data Right
Accurate data is key. Whether it’s MMP, in-app analytics, or creative performance, ensure you interpret results accurately to drive better decisions and scale effectively.

About Alper Taner:

🚀 Head of Performance Marketing at a stealth-mode app studio.

📱 With over 10 years in mobile growth, Alper drives user acquisition and marketing tech strategies, managing 8-figure budgets. He’s known for challenging conventional marketing practices and leveraging data to fuel growth.

👋 LinkedIn

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights: 

[0:00] Introduction to Alper Taner and his mobile growth expertise

[1:39] Why challenging best practices and testing your own data is crucial

[5:04] Poor metrics are facts, not problems

[8:10] Creative testing: Focus on quality and strong hypotheses, not just quantity

[12:00] Set spend guardrails and control budget allocation for better results

[15:30] Learn from competitors, but don’t copy their strategies blindly

[19:10] Accurate data is key: instrument it right for smarter decisions

[22:18] Small event mapping changes can lead to significant performance boosts

[27:00] Don’t shy away from unconventional strategies

[32:45] Iteration is key for creative optimization

[37:20] Manage budget thresholds in creative testing to avoid overspending

[41:00] Understand platform algorithms and guide them to work for you

[46:00] Use guardrails and budget caps to control spend while optimizing performance

[49:50] Balance risk and experimentation with data-backed decision-making

[54:05] Retention and user behavior drive long-term growth

[58:00] Key lessons from creative testing: Adjust based on results

[1:00:30] Mixing creativity with data is the key to optimized user acquisition

Top Takeaways:

📉 Know When to Pivot
 Wrangle struggled because it wasn’t solving a real problem. Burner succeeded because it met a clear need. Don’t be afraid to pivot when the product isn’t working.

💭Most Consumer Apps Don’t Need VC

Venture capital can be a blessing but also a curse. If you attract investment that doesn’t line up with your product vision or culture, the cash injection can turn out to be a costly mistake. Building a business that pays for itself is a better fit for most founders.  

🔑 Focus on Retention
 Success is about keeping users, not just acquiring them. Burner’s ability to retain users, even short-term ones, proved its value. If users keep coming back, you’ve found something meaningful.

🛠 Trials, Errors, Wins
Testing was crucial to Burner’s growth. Every experiment was a learning opportunity. Don’t guess—test continuously, especially pricing, to find what drives retention and revenue.

🎯 Small Changes, Big Results
 Minor tweaks, like switching to a free trial, led to significant growth. Optimize for retention with quick, simple changes. Even minor adjustments can have a substantial impact on results.

About Greg Cohn: 

🛫 Founder and CEO of Ad Hoc Labs

📱 Greg Cohn is the founder of Burner, the leading mobile app for managing personal privacy through disposable phone numbers. With a passion for solving real-world problems, Greg transitioned from an early startup failure to building a successful business that prioritizes user privacy, simplicity, and seamless functionality.

👋 LinkedIn
💬 Text Greg’s Burner: (323) 579-1830
🧑‍💻 Open Roles at Ad Hoc Labs (Mention “Sub Club” to get a closer look at your resume.)

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:

[0:00] The concept behind Wrangle, Greg’s first app

[1:39] Twilio’s role in developing Wrangle and early challenges

[3:24] Burner’s breakthrough with the “burner” feature for privacy

[9:42] Wrangle’s pivot and what went wrong

[13:36] Moving from paid downloads to a subscription model for Burner

[24:47] Importance of user feedback in shaping the Burner product

[33:24] The credit system and why it transitioned to subscriptions

[38:55] Why retention and cohort analysis are key to Burner’s success

[44:29] How Burner integrates new features like VPN for growth

[54:33] Premium tier features: phone number lookup becomes popular

[1:02:18] Bundling products: the decision to expand Burner’s offerings

[1:09:53] Greg’s thoughts on acquiring apps vs building new features

[1:23:38] Win of the year: faster paywall testing speed for Burner

📊 Stack the demand curve
Tinder didn’t just offer one price—it built a staircase of value. Low-tier subs, premium upgrades, and microtransactions filled in the gaps of user willingness to pay. The result? More people paid something, and some paid a lot. Don’t pick one price point. Map the whole curve.

 🎯 Create value before monetization
The fastest way to expand your TAM? Get users to the “aha” moment faster. Tinder made onboarding nearly instant to tap into a new, younger audience. In contrast, Sesame Care increased conversions with a 25-step flow by increasing user confidence. Friction isn’t the enemy—poor timing is.

💰 Free is a monetization strategy
At Tinder, 85–90% of users never paid. But their presence was the product—fueling demand and justifying spend for the other 10–15%. Don’t underestimate free users. Sometimes, they’re the reason someone else is willing to pay.

🧪 Price is product
Tinder didn’t guess what users would pay. It ran hundreds of localized price tests across SKUs to learn what users valued. Pricing isn’t a spreadsheet exercise—it’s part of the product experience and should be tested like one.

📐 Narrative beats metrics
OKRs fail when they skip the why. Ravi’s NCTs framework, which stands for Narratives, Commitments, Tasks, anchors goals in story and context. If your team is hitting the numbers but drifting on focus, it’s probably time to start with the story—not the spreadsheet.

🪞 Monetization reveals product market fit
Most apps undercharge. A scanner app might seem basic, but if it powers daily workflows, it’s worth real money. Set your price high enough to test willingness, not just conversion. If no one bites, you don’t have a monetization problem—you have a product one.

About Ravi Mehta:
🔥 Former Chief Product Officer at Tinder and product leader at Meta, TripAdvisor, and Microsoft.

📈 Ravi helps companies turn behavioral insights into scalable monetization systems — from multi-tier subscriptions to habit-forming onboarding flows.

🗣 “If you have a product that’s solving an important need for someone, there’s a system around that that fits into the problem you’re solving, and you should think about the value of that system rather than just the price.”

👋 LinkedIn

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:
[0:00] Subscriptions as a force multiplier for consumables

[3:03] Filling the demand curve with tiers and microtransactions

[6:47] Why free-to-play was Tinder’s breakthrough innovation

[10:26] Matching monetization to different user behaviors

[13:09] Creating value for whales without breaking the game

[17:22] Experimenting your way into the perfect pricing model

[20:03] When free, trial, or paid onboarding makes the most sense

[23:47] Why apps are undermonetized and how to fix it

[28:43] Why a longer onboarding boosted conversion 40%

[35:20] How shorter onboarding expanded Tinder’s total market

[43:03] Narratives, commitments, and tasks: a better goal framework

[01:02:49] Growth is easier when you own your audience

💸 Value Overcomes Fatigue

Consumers would rather not pay for anything, but when a product delivers real value, they are happy to pay, even via subscriptions. Whether it’s training for a race, protecting memories, or learning something new, utility drives retention. Building long-term value wins every time.

🧠 Build a ‘Category Killer’

Eric identified ‘Strava for Pets’ and ‘Managing screen time and digital focus’ are opportunities for future ‘category killer’ apps. What do those two opportunities have in common? They are in categories where people are already spending a lot of money or have the opportunity to save a lot of time or money.

🤝 Build to be loved, not acquired

The best M&A strategy? Build something consumers truly love. Runna didn’t sell to Strava because they planned for it, building cool features Strava didn’t have. They sold because Runna was a fantastic product that personalized running in a way that expanded the market Strava couldn’t. 

⚙️ Growth requires tough choices

Conglomerates like Bending Spoons win through ruthless efficiency. They acquire apps, cut costs, and apply repeatable growth playbooks at scale. It can be controversial, but sometimes it takes an outsider to spot that the team that took an app to 1,000 users may not be the team to take it to 100,000 and beyond.

📈 AI changes discovery

Search behavior is shifting, and SEO is no longer the only path to discovery. AI tools are becoming the starting point for many journeys, forcing marketers to rethink how users find and engage with products. Adapting to this shift means reimagining acquisition, not just tacking on AI features.

About Eric Crowley: 

👨‍💼 Partner at GP Bullhound, a global investment bank and venture capital firm.

💰 Eric leads the Consumer Subscription Software (CSS) practice, advising high-growth companies on capital raises and acquisitions—recently including AllTrails and Runna.

📊 “If you build a product that consumers truly love, strategics will come calling. It’s that emotional connection that drives outsized outcomes.”

👋 LinkedIn

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights: 
[0:00] Opportunities in subscription apps
[7:12] Consumers still pay when the product delivers lasting value
[10:41] What Strava’s acquisition of Runna reveals about building apps that get bought
[17:30] Genuine consumer love over designing for a single acquirer
[19:27] Shifts in discovery forcing app marketers to rethink SEO and acquisition
[28:56] Using AI to move faster, create better products, and deepen moats
[32:47] How loosened restrictions could return profit margins for top apps
[46:43] The next big subscription plays
[52:04] Why Bending Spoons are forcing investors to rethink consumer tech
[57:11] What makes the Bending Spoons model work
[1:00:10] The Secondary market is changing how founders think about app exits
[1:01:41] Trends, exits, and the state of the subscription app ecosystem

Top Takeaways:

🌱Growth is Built on Value
Sustainable growth comes from consistently adding value, not just short-term tactics.  Success lies in constantly evolving your product to meet users' needs. By regularly introducing new features and improving the user experience, premium products remain relevant and compelling. That value is continuous, with acquisition and retention working together to drive long-term growth.

🎯 Personalize for Retention
 Different users have different goals, and understanding this is key to retention. Tailor offerings to specific user needs, whether it is job seekers, hobbyists, or niche audiences. By tailoring plans and features to user intent, brands can keep their products relevant. Without this personalization, users may disengage and churn.

📊 Test to Optimize
With hundreds of A/B tests each year, Condé Nast learns what works quickly. Data replaces debate, helping the team iterate faster. The goal is not just to optimize, it is to foster a culture of constant learning and growth.

🔄 Retention Is a Journey
 Churn does not always mean goodbye. Many users return later when their needs change. Offering win-back deals, fresh trials, and adding new value helps bring users back and turn them into long-term subscribers. Retention is a process, not a straight line.

🤖 AI Supports, Not Leads
AI should enhance the user experience, not overshadow it. AI’s role is to solve problems, helping users find content or personalize their experience, while staying behind the scenes. The real value is in solving the user’s needs, not in the technology itself.

About Michael Ribero: 

👨‍💻 SVP, Global Consumer Revenue at Condé Nast.

📈 Michael leads the subscription and growth strategies for some of the world’s most iconic media brands, including Vogue, GQ, The New Yorker, and Wired. He focuses on optimizing user engagement, experimenting with monetization strategies, and evolving the digital experiences that drive both free and paid subscriptions.

💡 "We’ve learned that true growth comes from continually adding value. Our approach isn’t just about scaling; it’s about providing lasting benefits that evolve with our users’ needs."

👋 LinkedIn

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:
[0:00] Why launching a premium tier isn’t always the right move
[2:51] Competing with AI-native upstarts and influencer content
[5:39] Media's frenemy dynamic with platforms like Meta
[8:25] Balancing free vs. paid content without eroding brand trust
[11:46] How to recover from a failed paywall experiment
[13:23] What bundling and post-purchase upsells look like at Condé Nast
[19:41] Real-world LTV boosts from zero-CAC upsell moments
[22:30] Lessons from low-priced tiers like the Washington Post’s Starter Pack
[26:07] Tiering vs. focus: when a premium plan is actually a distraction

Top Takeaways:

🎯 Build to sell, but build smart
Flipping an app in under a year is still possible, but the skill that matters most now is marketing. With AI lowering the barrier to development, distribution has become the real differentiator. Founders who master organic channels, community, and creator-driven marketing are the ones who land meaningful exits.

💰 Predictability drives value
Buyers pay more for revenue they can trust. Apps built on recurring subscriptions with strong retention and low churn are far more attractive than those relying on ads or one-time purchases. Predictable cash flow isn’t just safer, it’s worth a higher multiple.

🚩 Short-term tricks destroy long-term value
Artificially inflating numbers before a sale, such as pushing lifetime deals to boost revenue, can quickly kill a deal. Serious acquirers look for sustainable metrics, not spikes. Authentic growth, honest reporting, and healthy retention are the hallmarks of a business built to last.

🔄 Fewer and deeper bets
The age-old quality-over-quantity principle still holds. After buying nearly a hundred small apps early on, BlueThrone learned that broad portfolios don’t win. Their new playbook focuses on a handful of apps with real product-market fit, strong organic traction, and teams ready to scale into category leaders.

💡 Hybrid monetization unlocks new growth
Borrowing tactics from gaming, like consumables, day passes, and rewarded ads, helps subscription apps reach more users and capture more value. These models make spending feel flexible and fair, turning a single price point into an entire revenue spectrum.

About Josh Peleg:  

📈 Head of Business Development and M&A at BlueThrone, one of the world’s leading app acquirers.

💡 Josh helps founders scale and exit their apps, guiding deals that range from six to eight figures.

🎮 Before joining BlueThrone, he led mergers and acquisitions in the mobile gaming industry, giving him a front-row view of how distribution and monetization strategies evolve.

🗣 “The best apps today aren’t just great products—they’re great stories. Marketing and distribution are what turn a good idea into a real business.”

👋 LinkedIn

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:
[0:00] Lesson learned from BlueThrone’s early “go-wide” strategy 

[6:20] Why founders have to be more than great builders 

[8:19] The pieces that lead to higher valuations

[12:37] Five signals that can kill a deal

[18:12] When (and when not) to raise

[24:33] Shifting from a broad portfolio to a few deep bets 

[33:15] The future of monetization

[45:07] What drives the best exits in today’s acquisition market

[52:00] How founders can position themselves for life-changing exits 

Top Takeaways:

🎨 Viral flywheels can out-perform massive paid campaigns

Relying on salaries instead of ad budgets, a lean team can ship constant creative that rides cultural waves. Most experiments flop quietly, but the occasional viral hit fuels downloads across platforms and even influences app store featuring. The lesson: volume, autonomy, and cultural fluency can rival—or surpass—big-spend marketing.

🛡️ Protecting user experience is a growth strategy

It’s tempting to squeeze harder on monetization, but avoiding overly aggressive tactics can pay off longer-term. By keeping the core product endlessly playable and resisting short-term optimization, teams can build evergreen engagement that compounds for over a decade. Sometimes the best ROI comes from not chasing every last dollar.

🎁 Rewarded ads expand who you can monetize

Giving users the choice to watch ads in exchange for perks isn’t just a gaming trick—it’s a fairness mechanism. It allows players in tier-two and tier-three markets, who may never subscribe, to still contribute value. Apps beyond gaming can borrow this playbook to reach broader audiences without alienating core users.

⏱️ Season passes deliver transparency and trust

Unlike recurring subscriptions, passes offer clear value over a fixed time window: pay once, play (or use) for the season. This structure avoids the “forgotten subscription” resentment while still generating meaningful revenue. It’s a model that translates well to utilities and lifestyle apps where usage is bursty or seasonal.

🤝 Collaborations multiply reach without heavy spend

Crossovers between brands or products can reactivate lapsed users and bring in new audiences, even when no money changes hands. Like the music industry learned with features, one plus one can equal three when two strong IPs join forces. Subscription apps in adjacent niches can create the same effect.

About Mathias Gredal Nørvig: 

👨‍💻 CEO of SYBO, the company behind the smash hit mobile game Subway Surfers.

📈 Mathias and the small-but-mighty SYBO content marketing team have built a freemium mobile app with serious staying power.

💡“How do we entertain as many players as possible with something as available as possible, but also allow those who want to spend … money to progress or get more content to do so — without the expense of ruining the fun for the majority?”

👋 LinkedIn 

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights: 

[1:01] Staying power: How a subscription app like Subway Surfers achieves longevity with over 4.5 billion downloads.

[4:30] Surfing the waves: How the Subway Surfers in-house creative marketing team creates and rides virality waves.

[8:50] The content flywheel: How subscription apps can become self-sustaining with organic marketing.

[16:27] Cash flow: What subscription apps can learn from the mobile gaming industry about alternative monetization strategies.

[19:51] Paying the piper: How to balance a good user experience with when and how to require payment.

[25:30] A watchful eye: The challenges of preserving brand reputation and protecting underage users in a freemium app that serves ads.

[28:48] Teaming up: Avoiding cannibalization and partnering with competitors in the free-to-play space.

[41:17] Day pass: How apps can experiment with consumables, day passes, and season passes to unlock new revenue opportunities.

Top Takeaways:

🌱 Growth follows value

The surest path to long-term growth is adding features and benefits that genuinely help people achieve their goals. Growth tactics may bring a spike, but sustainable revenue comes from a product that keeps evolving so members find new reasons to return. When value creation is continuous, acquisition and retention become self-reinforcing.

🎯 Personalize by intent

Not all users are looking for the same outcome. Job seekers, small business owners, and learners need different experiences. Matching plans, features, and paywalls to their specific intent—whether expressed directly or inferred from behavior—makes the product feel relevant and worth paying for. The alternative is irrelevance, which guarantees churn.

📊 Test like a scientist

Scaling experimentation changes the culture: debates give way to data. By running over a thousand tests a year, teams learn faster, spot what actually resonates, and avoid relying on intuition alone. The goal isn’t just to optimize pricing or layouts—it’s to build a habit of constant learning that compounds into growth.

🔄 Retention isn’t linear

Churn doesn’t always mean goodbye. Many users return months or years later when their needs change—“boomerang” behavior that can become a meaningful revenue stream. Win-back offers, refreshed trials, and simply continuing to add new value all help capture these returning customers and turn them into long-term loyalists.

🤖 AI is a tool, not the story

Artificial intelligence should quietly power better outcomes, not become the headline. Helping users write a stronger profile, find the right lead, or save time drafting a job description creates tangible value. Positioning AI as a behind-the-scenes helper keeps the focus where it belongs: solving the user’s problem.

About Ora Levit:
 

👨‍💻 Vice President of Product Management at LinkedIn.

📈 Ora manages LinkedIn’s billion-dollar online subscription businesses, growing both the free weekly active user base and adding value for LinkedIn Premium subscribers.

💡“Our offering changes over time, and as I mentioned, we believe in value-driven growth. We add a lot of value. And so the Premium that you've seen if you subscribed two years ago is not the Premium of today. It's a very different product, and I want you to try it out.”

👋 LinkedIn

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:

[0:00] Value add: How LinkedIn centers value-driven growth in their product development.

[8:40] The long game: The importance of optimizing for and measuring long-term revenue.

[9:57] Pay to play: Where to draw the line between free and paid features.

[17:59] Put it to the test: Ora and her team prioritize A/B testing and user feedback over internal debates about feature ideas.

[23:32] Take it personally: The role of AI and LLMs in personalizing in-app experiences.

[27:47] Here today (and tomorrow): Strategies for retaining users in the long term and winning back churned users.

[34:52] The AI touch: LinkedIn’s philosophy on incorporating AI features to add value to their product.

[39:44] Two (or three) for one: Leveraging strategic partnerships to add bundled perks to a premium subscription offering.

[41:43] Pulse check: Monitoring earnings calls, reports, books, and podcasts to stay in step with the current state of the subscription app industry.

Top Takeaways:

📊 Broken measurement kills growth

The biggest pitfall isn’t creative or channel choice—it’s disorganized measurement. When finance, product, and UA each use different models, growth stalls. The fix isn’t another dashboard; it’s alignment. Build one coherent, incrementality-aware framework everyone trusts, with clear definitions of success and outputs that meet each team’s needs.

🌊 Don’t diversify just to diversify

Spreading budget across more channels feels safer but often reduces performance after integration, creative, and reporting overhead. Start with a waterfall method: max out your primary channel until ROAS hits your threshold, then move to the next. Diversify for scale or cross-channel effects—not optics.

🎲 Stop asking why an ad worked

Winners often defy tidy explanations. Treat individual ad outcomes as stochastic and largely uninterpretable. Put your energy into the system: feed diverse concepts, automate prospecting/synthesis, and measure whether your process is increasing the rate of wins over time. Learn from inputs and process—not post-hoc stories about outputs.

⚡ Ship speed over certainty early

You won’t have fully baked LTV or incrementality in week one. Push spend methodically: kill obvious losers immediately, let plausible winners age, track cohort ROAS at day-7/30/60, and widen budgets as curves support it. Iterative frontier-pushing beats premature “terminal LTV” guesswork.

🧩 Engineer better signals

Algorithms optimize to the signals you send. Create intentional, high-intent events (light “hurdles” that correlate with LTV) and send those back to platforms. Better signals shift spend toward durable users and compound efficiency, especially as automation on major platforms accelerates.

About Eric Seufert:

👨‍💻 Quantitative marketer, media strategist, investor, and author.

📈 Eric shares expert advice on the Mobile Dev Memo blog and is an investor at Heracles Capital.

💡 “The way I approach creative testing is trying to identify losers as quickly as possible. The winners take time to prove out, but the losers are pretty quick to prove out.”

👋 LinkedIn

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights: 

[1:00] Intelligent design: How to effectively incorporate AI into your business strategy.

[4:52] I, Robot: Machine learning =/= generative AI.

[8:36] AI Pitfalls: AI works best for automating tasks and coming up with ideas — not generating brilliant creative assets.

[17:29] Predictive AI: Brand-specific, full-fidelity video ads generated by AI could be a reality within 18 months.

[33:25] Risky business: How to effectively diversify across advertising channels to optimize ROAS-adjusted spend.

[37:43] Measure of success: Above all, make sure your measurement system is coherent and has cross-team alignment.

[42:04] Tortoise vs. hare: To balance speed and efficiency, identify your ad “losers” as quickly as possible.

[44:43] Missed opportunity: Good marketing comes down to embracing some uncertainty and minimizing the rest.

[49:23] Human touch: Why generative AI creative tools probably aren’t a worthwhile investment right now.

Top Takeaways:

🧠 The biggest AI opportunity in ads is smarter analysis, not faster production

AI is now good enough to produce ad-quality video and variants at scale — but that’s where 95% of the industry focus stops. The underused frontier is AI for analysis: spotting winning hooks, predicting performance, and even pre-testing creatives with “AI humans” before spend. The teams that combine rapid AI production with AI-driven analysis can iterate faster and scale what works more reliably.

🔍 Signal engineering starts with fixing broken data

If the events you send to ad networks are inaccurate or poorly mapped, you’re sabotaging the algorithms. First step: make sure event counts match internal analytics within ~5–10% (not 30–50%). Then move from “normal” to “sophisticated” by filtering for quality — for example, optimizing to high-LTV trial signups instead of all trials — and sending value-adjusted revenue that reflects predicted LTV, not just day-one spend.

⚖️ Balance exploitation of winners with exploration of new concepts

When a creative crushes it, it’s tempting to flood your account with variations. But over-reliance on a single concept speeds fatigue and leaves you exposed when performance drops. Keep iterating on winners and testing new hooks in parallel — especially on fast-moving platforms like TikTok, where trends expire in weeks.

🌐 App-to-web works best for big brands with deep resources

Moving checkout to the web can bypass app store fees, but it’s a high-commitment experiment. Success usually requires brand trust, team bandwidth, and a well-tested flow — often with different plan structures than in-app. For most smaller teams, the opportunity cost outweighs the benefit. “Saying no to good ideas” is often the smarter prioritization.

💳 Hybrid monetization is powerful, but not plug-and-play

Combining subscriptions with one-time or usage-based purchases can capture more revenue from different segments — especially for AI-powered apps with real compute costs. But designing it to avoid cannibalizing subscriptions is complex. Treat hybrid as a later-stage lever: exhaust easier wins in pricing, packaging, and paywall optimization first, then experiment, possibly starting with Android or non-US markets. 

About Thomas Petit: 

👨‍💻 Independent app growth consultant helping subscription apps like Lingokids, Deezer, and Mojo.

📈 Thomas is passionate about helping subscription apps optimize their ad spend and increase ROI through smarter testing.

💡 “The whole idea of signal engineering and optimization of the data that you're sending back is: send the network something better, and they're gonna do a better job. They are doing a better job — it's you who are not doing yours.”

👋  LinkedIn

Follow us on X:

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:
 

[1:21] Testing smarter: How AI may be changing the game for testing ads.

[13:09] Untangling the web: App-to-web can work for some, but it’s not a slam dunk.

[21:19] Hedge your bets: The benefits of moving away from subscription-only and embracing hybrid monetization strategies.

[26:50] Going global: When and why to consider experimenting with hybrid monetization outside the US.

[31:15] Signal vs. noise: The signal engineering framework for sending the most valuable user interaction data to ad platforms.

[44:47] Multi-platform: Optimizing your data and event mapping for multiple ad networks.

[53:01] Low-hanging fruit: Scoring easy wins with signal engineering.

[1:08:04] Hands-off: Why ad networks likely won’t (and maybe shouldn’t?) implement built-in signal engineering tools for app marketers.

[1:14:05] Going deep: Advanced signal engineering techniques.

[1:26:09] Volume vs. quality: Why sending fewer events to ad networks may actually yield better results.

Top Takeaways:

🗣️ Listening has driven 24 years of product evolution

Every Zumba breakthrough — from instructor certifications born out of VHS buyer calls, to an app tailored for shy beginners — came directly from customer insights. The roadmap is data-led, not intuition-driven, ensuring they're always building what users genuinely want.

🎯 Subscribers pay for structured programs, not endless content

Zumba realized users were overwhelmed by free YouTube videos. By creating curated, goal-oriented programs, subscribers now watch twice as many videos and retention doubled. People will pay for guidance and curation — not just more content.

🚀 Your growth ceiling depends on beginner retention

With 70% of new users identifying as beginners, Zumba redesigned onboarding and UX to quickly move them toward completing three classes. Annual-plan signups reached 60%, and churn dropped dramatically. Early milestones for beginners unlock long-term growth.

🌐 Web checkout can lower conversion yet raise revenue

Zumba shifted paywall taps to a simplified web checkout with Apple Pay and Google Pay. Immediate conversions dropped 25%, but higher annual plans, better retention, and no store fees drove a 17% lift in LTV. Optimize for long-term value, not just instant conversions.

🔁 Speed of iteration beats legacy processes every time

Zumba’s lean, agile team tests and pivots relentlessly — from paywall pricing to removing unsuccessful features. Daily checks in Mixpanel dictate what scales or what’s cut. Moving quickly and iterating beats established practices and keeps growth steady.

About Nicole Page & Lucy Levy:

📱 Nicole Page is Senior Product Manager at Zumba, leading app development with a focus on user research and fast iteration. From onboarding experiments to web-first paywalls, she brings a data-driven mindset to every launch.

💡 “Every launch is a hypothesis we’re testing, and we’re never afraid to pivot if the numbers tell us to.”

👋 Nicole

🚀 Lucy Levy is Chief Consumer Officer at Zumba, guiding the brand from VHS to app, boosting LTV 17% along the way with innovative strategies and beginner-focused design.

🌍 Together, they’re modernizing Zumba’s global community.

👋 Lucy

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:

[00:02:44] From VHS to app store: How three Albertos turned dance fitness into a global brand.

[00:06:26] Community is the product: Why Zumba built its business around instructors, not just workouts.

[00:11:01] Research at scale: How hundreds of interviews revealed why “The Shy Beginner” is their most important user.

[00:14:30] Better churn than never: Why people leaving the app for live classes still counts as a win.

[00:15:54] Can’t compete with free? Yes you can: The Zumba app’s curated programs outperform YouTube.

[00:17:25] Double the value: Adding structured programs led to twice the content engagement and better retention.

[00:20:04] Cracking community: Why their first chat-based social feature failed and what they’re planning next.

[00:22:56] Test everything: Zumba’s app team operates with a growth mindset inside a 24-year-old company.

[00:25:22] Data before breakfast: Why daily Mixpanel check-ins drive fast iteration and culture change.

[00:26:09] App-to-web win: How a 25% drop in conversion still led to a 17% lift in LTV.

[00:30:19] Checkout optimization: Using Stripe, Apple Pay, and Google Pay to simplify the paywall experience.

[00:35:07] Push, don’t annoy: The team’s smart notification timing strategy based on user habits.

[00:38:44] Beginner, please: 75% of users identify as new to fitness, so the app is built just for them.

[00:39:01] Add friction, raise conversion: How a longer onboarding flow improved paywall success.

[00:40:51] One class to hook them: Why Zumba offers just one free class before locking the app.

[00:43:25] Three’s the magic number: Users who complete three classes are much more likely to stick.

[00:44:56] No trial, no problem: Ditching the monthly trial increased upfront revenue and annual plan adoption.

Top Takeaways:

🕹️ The 1980s: Apple’s developer DNA was born
 Apple’s earliest wins came from nurturing third-party developers, even spinning off its own apps to avoid competing with outsiders.

💸 Microsoft saved Apple (literally)
 Apple’s near-bankruptcy in the ’90s made them both humble and wary—forever shaping how they deal with developers and competition.

🍎 From “please build for us” to “we choose you”
 WWDC 2008 saw Apple begging for apps and evangelist emails on slides; today, it’s the other way around.

🖥️ The “Delicious Era” fueled iPhone success
 Mac indie devs (Panic, Delicious Monster, Bare Bones) built a design-obsessed, passionate community—setting the stage for the iPhone App Store boom.

🚪 App Store 1.0: A new world for indies
 For the first time, solo developers could launch businesses from home. No server costs, no payments hassle—just build, submit, and sell.

🏦 Apple’s rules got stricter as the App Store grew
 As the App Store became a services giant, the partnership vibe faded. Developers went from partners to “users” of Apple’s marketplace.

📉 App Store math now feels upside down
 Today, indie devs can pay Apple millions, while giants like Meta pay almost nothing. The fee logic and incentives don’t fit 2025.

⏳ The platform needs an “App Store 3.0” reset
 John and David call for a new era: lower fees, clearer rules, and Apple acting as a true platform partner—not just a toll booth.

🔄 Developer enthusiasm is Apple’s long-term moat
 Apple risks becoming a “legacy only” giant if it loses developer goodwill. The most important apps are still built by outsiders.

👥 A generational handoff is coming
 With Apple’s senior leadership nearing retirement, now is the time to set new priorities: empower developers, invest in the ecosystem, and ensure Apple’s platforms stay vibrant for decades to come.

About John Gruber:

🚀 Author of the Daring Fireball blog, host of The Talk Show, and co-creator of Markdown.

🍎 John is a lifelong Apple fan and is passionate about discussing all things iPhone, App Store, and developer relations.

💡 “I feel like Apple is dwelling on the success and the innovation that completely revolutionized the phone industry […] for too long and that they should move on and build something else new.”

👋  Daring Fireball 

Resources: 

• Bill Gates in 1984 promoting Apple Macintosh 
• Bill Gates on stage with Steve Jobs in 1983
• The Macintosh Way — Guy Kawasaki
• Cocoa Programming for Mac OS X — Aaron Hillegass
• Daring Fireball

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights: 

[0:00] Apple Kremlinology: Why understanding Apple requires a special kind of obsession - and a long memory.

[4:58] Fanboys unite: David shares how his love of Apple led him from audio engineer to App Store developer.

[8:48] Turning point: John’s link to David’s iPhone mileage app in 2008 helped jumpstart his indie career.

[13:37] Joz, Phil, and Eddy: The developer relations and most of the App Store are overseen by three Apple execs who joined in the ‘80s.

[17:01] The crossroads: How Apple’s early decision to unbundle first-party apps in the ‘80s encouraged third-party innovation.

[21:25] Hands off: Why Apple’s decade-long retreat from building software paved the way for a thriving developer ecosystem.

[27:07] Vision parallels: John compares Vision Pro’s slow start to the original Mac - and explains why it doesn’t have to be perfect (yet).

[30:32] Betting on the future: How Apple playing the long-game is their biggest advantage in launching and sustaining new platforms.

[33:55] What comes after the Mac: The ‘90s were filled with failed next-gen Apple platforms - and it almost killed the company.

[36:47] Burned by success: Apple’s trauma from near-bankruptcy shaped their need to control developer relationships.

[41:13] The App Store revolution: Why the 2008 launch of the App Store wasn’t just a business move, it was a turning point for software itself.

[45:07] Developer momentum: How passionate indie devs and Mac software of the 2000s primed the iPhone for success.

[53:46] iPhone jailbreakers: Why the jailbreak community may have pushed Apple to launch the SDK sooner than expected.

[57:39] App Store 2.0: In 2016, Apple dropped some commission rates, opened up subscriptions, and kicked off a new era.

[1:03:03] Time for 3.0: Why David believes the App Store needs another reset - and a shift in mindset.

[1:08:26] Humility and hardware: Steve Jobs’ 1997 apology to a developer at WWDC still echoes - and it’s exactly what developers need to hear in 2025.

[1:13:30] Holding on too tight: How Apple’s fear of losing control is costing them developer goodwill.

[1:26:35] A legacy worth protecting: The iPhone isn’t going anywhere - but without change, Apple could become a legacy business as other platforms take over.

[1:32:06] Red flags on Vision Pro: Why developers aren’t building for Apple’s newest platform - and why that should worry Apple.

[1:39:18] The indie paradox: How small developers pay millions to Apple, while giants like Meta pay almost nothing.
[1:41:39] Fluke of history: Schiller once floated capping App Store revenue at $1B. What if Jobs had said yes?
[1:44:35] The trust gap: Could a more generous App Store policy bring Netflix and others back?

[1:47:08] It’s not too late: Why Apple should proactively change the App Store instead of waiting on regulation.

[1:57:26] Developer vibes: A simpler App Store (with clearer rules and lower fees) could renew trust and drive innovation.

[2:00:29] Bigger than profit: Making great soft...

Top Takeaways:
🔍 Demand-first discipline wins
Testing for willingness to pay before writing a line of code can spare you five years of false starts. Quick interviews or landing pages that capture real purchase signals reveal genuine demand—an indispensable early litmus test against building in a vacuum.

🔄 Ride existing habits
Rather than convincing users to adopt completely new rituals, plug into behaviors they already practice. When pros were manually measuring holes on satellite maps, the real breakthrough was automating that exact process in real time—sidestepping the steep education curve of a brand-new workflow.

🛑 Bet on a long-term vision, not a quick exit
An early $75K acquisition offer can feel like a no-brainer, but sometimes the best move is to walk away. Turning down a strategic buyout kept ownership in entrepreneurial hands and paved the way for multiples of that valuation through continued iteration and growth.

💼 Treat side projects like businesses
A side hustle stays a hobby until you put real money on the line. Investing $5K in core data and infrastructure forced a shift from tinkering to professional-grade execution—transforming assumptions into data-driven priorities and unlocking deeper product opportunities.

🤝 Niche community fuel sparks growth
No launch strategy outpaces genuine community engagement. By sharing expert tips in specialized forums and social channels before and during build, small audiences morph into early adopters, trial converts, and your most effective brand advocates.

Resources 

• Very Good Ventures (Website)
• Seth Miller (LinkedIn)
• Curtis Herbert (LinkedIn)
• Eric’s story (RevenueCat blog post)

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights: 

[3:24] If at first you don’t succeed: How (and when) Eric realized his first app, Undaunted Golf, didn’t have good product-market fit.

[7:28] Try, try again: Why Eric’s second golf app, Shot Pattern, was a success.

[11:21] If you build it: Instead of just launching on the App Store, Eric implemented a content marketing strategy to promote Shot Pattern.

[13:18] Back to black: How Eric’s $5,000 upfront investment in Shot Pattern unlocked some key product differentiators and paid off in a big way.

[20:23] Sell, sell, sell?: After receiving an acquisition offer from a potential buyer, Eric used RevenueCat’s app benchmarks to analyze Shot Pattern’s performance data and determine a rough valuation.

[25:06] Have a little faith: What happened when Eric turned down a $75,000 buyout offer and kept working on Shot Pattern.

[31:25] Video games: How Eric increased Shot Pattern’s annual revenue to $185,000 with video ads.

[37:24] Quit your day job: What would make Eric consider quitting his full-time teaching job to focus on his growing subscription app business.

[39:18] One-man show: Besides partnering with some content creators, Eric does most of the work for Shot Pattern by himself.

[42:25] Success story: How RevenueCat helped Eric launch and grow a successful app business that changed his life.

Top Takeaways:

🫧 A style refresh is a growth hack

A major UI overhaul—like Apple’s new “liquid glass” design—creates a once-in-cycle chance to stand out. Apps that ship the new look on day one dominate screenshots, roundup articles, and “App of the Day” slots. It’s free reach: adopt the guidelines early, respect the new hierarchy (avoid stacking glass on glass), and you can siphon users from slower rivals without a bigger ad budget.

🎯 Keywords deserve their own landing pages

You can now pin specific search terms to specific custom product pages. A running-focused page for “5k training,” a cycling page for “bike tracker,” each with its own screenshots and messaging. App Store Connect then breaks analytics down by page, turning guesswork into clear attribution. The result: higher paid-per-download and a shortcut to segment-level A/B testing—no SDK required.

⚡ Tiny, local AI = instant delight

Apple’s on-device foundation models aren’t GPT-4, and that’s fine. Their super-fast, private inference (with a 496-token context window) shines at micro-tasks: sentiment tags, quick text rewrites, lightweight image badges, feature-name suggestions. Treat them as edge helpers, not flagship features. For deep research or long context, hand off to a cloud model. Paired wisely, the mix keeps experiences snappy without sacrificing quality.

🪟 Build like screens will fold

iPadOS 26 finally lets apps run true windows, offload background work, and juggle tasks like a desktop. That’s great for tablets today and a rehearsal for rumored foldables tomorrow. Audit your layouts: do panes resize gracefully? Can a process finish if the user drags your window aside? Investing in this responsiveness now means you’re launch-ready when new form factors arrive.

🔑 Promotions should be measurable

Offer codes used to be subscription-only; now they work for consumables and one-time purchases too. You get up to ten trackable code groups (each with up to a million codes) plus UTM-style links and the expanded App Store analytics to see which podcast promo, TikTok ad, or partner giveaway actually drove revenue. You can finally run seasonal sales or affiliate deals without duct-tape spreadsheets and double down on what moves the needle.

About Charlie Chapman: 

👟 Senior Developer Advocate at RevenueCat and indie app creator behind a suite of iOS and macOS tools.

🎯 Charlie blends indie instincts with platform insight, translating Apple’s latest changes into real opportunities for developers.

💡 “Don’t build a chatbot around this (on-device models). But if you’re looking for a fast, free way to make your app better in small, thoughtful ways, the new on-device models are really interesting.”

👋  LinkedIn

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Top Takeaways:

⚡ Instant iteration cycles unlock agility
 React Native and Expo supercharge development by collapsing long build times into mere seconds. With tools like Expo Go enabling live updates, teams can experiment, test, and improve their apps in real time. This instant feedback loop fuels innovation, cuts dev time, and helps startups move faster than ever.

🧱 React Native unifies teams and code
 By choosing a cross-platform stack like React Native, companies can maintain a single codebase for iOS, Android, and web. This unified approach reduces silos, simplifies hiring, and streamlines development. The result is faster feature delivery, consistent UX, and the agility that startups need to scale.

📈 Iteration speed drives growth
 Shipping faster beats obsessing over tech stacks. Companies that iterate quickly can test ideas, learn from real users, and ship improvements faster than competitors. This leads to better products, higher retention, and stronger monetization, giving them a competitive edge in crowded markets.

🔍 Consistency across platforms builds trust
 Users expect apps to work seamlessly, whether they’re on iOS, Android, or the web. React Native helps deliver that uniform experience, aligning with modern product expectations. Consistency reduces friction, boosts trust, and enhances user satisfaction—key drivers of long-term growth.

🤝 AI is the co-pilot, humans set the course
 AI tools like Claude and Copilot are transforming app development, making it faster to scaffold code and build features. But the real breakthroughs come from human oversight—making smart UX decisions, handling platform quirks, and bringing creative problem-solving. Pairing AI speed with human insight unlocks the best of both worlds.

About Charlie Cheever:

🚀 Co-Founder and CEO of Expo, a platform that simplifies the development of native apps using React Native, empowering developers to build apps for iOS, Android, and the web with ease.

📱 Charlie is dedicated to empowering developers to create seamless, cross-platform apps with less friction. He’s focused on improving the developer experience by reducing complexity and enabling rapid iteration.

💡 “One of the biggest advantages of Expo and React Native is the ability to move fast and iterate quickly without worrying about maintaining separate codebases for each platform.

👋  LinkedIn

Resources: 

• State of Subscription Apps 2025 — RevenueCat Report

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights: 

[1:12] Chain reaction: What React is and how Expo enables developers to use it.

[6:30] Positive feedback loop: How Expo dramatically shortens the product development and iteration cycle.

[12:08] React vs. native: Why React has become the default development framework for modern apps and websites — enabling seamless product iteration across platforms with fewer engineering resources.

[23:13] 1+3+4: How Bluesky was built for three platforms by one developer in just four months.

[28:07] All-in: Why it’s better to build with React from the start instead of developing a native app first and implementing React later.

[35:20] Cause/effect: Do React Native subscription apps monetize better than native apps?

[39:37] Coding smarter: How AI is speeding up development times and pushing developers towards rapid-iteration tools like Expo.

[58:52] Mobile shift: More and more people are consuming software on mobile devices instead of PCs… shouldn’t the app development process align with that shift?

Top Takeaways: 

🔁 Replace trials with trust to attract high-intent users

A 30-day money-back guarantee can outperform traditional free trials—especially in web funnels. Paying upfront sends a stronger signal to ad platforms, helping them optimize for the right users. And when refunds are rare, overall LTV improves. It’s a bet on product confidence and customer intent.

🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Learning apps work better when parents are part of the experience

Apps that require co-use between a parent and child show far better educational outcomes and retention. Research shows kids learn up to 19x more effectively with adult involvement. It’s a smaller market—but a deeper one—if you design for it.

🏗️ Rigid methods can stifle product innovation

Strict adherence to frameworks like Scrum can turn creative engineers into ticket-takers. Giving teams room to rethink and revise—even late in development—yields stronger products. Empower developers as collaborators, not executors.

🌐 Trusted domains outperform in web-to-app conversion

When onboarding flows are moved to the web, conversion often drops—unless users recognize and trust the brand. Memorable, credible domains help users feel confident making purchases off-platform. Trust is the friction reducer.

🧰 Specialized contractors deliver more with less overhead

Instead of building an in-house team of marketing generalists, using seasoned channel experts—paid media, lifecycle, SEO—can deliver faster results with less management. It’s a scalable model for lean teams aiming to punch above their weight.

About Tim Dikun:

🧑‍🏫COO of Teaching.com, a suite of educational apps for children that’s been helping kids learn to read and type for nearly 30 years.

📖 Tim is passionate about building world-class educational tools that leverage both the power of AI and the parent-child connection.

💡“There's a lot of tooling out there for mobile apps that we just can't use because Apple won't let us — because it's a kids’ app. And I get it, it makes sense. It just means we have to get a little creative and find ways to get the information that we're looking for.”

👋 LinkedIn

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights: 

[0:37] Storied history: How Teaching.com found product-market fit in the early days of subscription apps.

[4:41] (A)syncing up: Why Teaching.com disables Slack and Basecamp notifications in their team communications.

[8:12] Ch-ch-ch-changes: Teaching.com’s approach to product development encourages ideation and late-stage changes, rather than sticking to an arbitrary design.

[11:48] Intelligence (artificial and otherwise): Finding the right balance between AI and the human touch in an educational product.

[15:40] Testing the waters: Experimenting with higher prices, money-back guarantees, and annual plans to increase LTV.

[23:03] Context switching: Teaching.com’s experiments with web-to-app resulted in a 50% increase in trial starts and a 30% increase in paid conversions.

[28:35] Upselling: Increasing LTV with downloadable in-app purchases and physical products on Amazon.

[33:02] Land and expand: Increasing the size and LTV of your user base by serving additional customer needs.

[35:34] Kid-friendly: The unique challenges of developing subscription apps for children.

[38:36] Expert advice: Why Teaching.com contracts with marketing channel experts instead of building an in-house marketing team.

Top Takeaways:

🧮 Data has limits
Short-term data can lie. When every experiment looks like a win in isolation, it’s easy to miss the slow erosion of trust happening in the background. Real harm often builds quietly and cumulatively — too subtle for A/B tests to detect, and too long-term for analytics dashboards to surface.

🧊 Freemium is a strategy, not a stepping stone
Free users aren’t just a growth channel — they’re often the foundation of retention, virality, and brand. The key is not just giving something away, but building genuine value into the free tier while monetizing a clear, meaningful upgrade. Trying to monetize too early or too aggressively risks killing long-term compounding benefits.

🚪 Fake doors, real insights
Not every test needs statistical significance. Especially in the early stages of validation, it’s better to move fast, fake the backend, and just see what people click. When the goal is to gauge interest, not measure retention, scrappy beats precise.

🛑 Dark patterns don’t scale
Stacking minor friction points, misleading CTAs, or unclear pricing might bump conversions — but it quietly breaks trust. Even if the data looks fine, something more critical is breaking: your brand. When users stop recommending you, you’ll realize those small wins were expensive.

📐 Principles over process
When companies scale, the instinct is to build more process. But sometimes the best way to maintain speed and quality is through shared principles. A clear set of product values — what won’t be touched, how users are treated — provides clarity, autonomy, and momentum across teams.

About Chris Hulls:

👪 Founder and CEO of Life360, the family safety platform used by over 80 million active users worldwide.

🔒 Chris is passionate about building products that offer real daily utility while protecting user trust, focusing on long-term value instead of short-term growth hacks.

💡 “The core has to give real value to our customers, not kind of fake value. Like real, real value forever for free, period.”

👋  LinkedIn

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights: 

[1:33] A niche market: How the Life360 team found success by building an app in an under-served vertical.

[7:55] Free vs. paid: Striking the right balance of free versus paid features in a freemium app.

[11:37] A strong constitution: Why Chris and the Life360 team wrote a customer “Bill of Rights.”

[15:59] Data-driven: Why you may not always need to run tests on a large percentage of your users to get helpful results.

[22:17] Value ad(d): Creating helpful — not annoying — user experiences in ads and brand deals.

[29:12] Moving target: User privacy and the ethics of selling users’ raw versus de-identified versus aggregated data.

[38:31] The long haul: How to stay energized and excited working on the same product for multiple years.

[44:28] Unbreakable: Exercising caution with mission-critical features to maintain user trust.

[53:35] Future-proof: How Life360 is growing and expanding in 2025 and beyond.

🎯 Your app is a means to an end

Users don’t care about how many features you have — they care about achieving something in their lives. Apps that focus on the user’s goal, rather than their own functionality, become essential. Instead of selling the tool, sell the transformation: what life looks like after the user succeeds.

🧠 Talking to users beats guessing
Surveys are useful, but user interviews and review mining are goldmines for finding the “why” behind behavior. Understanding what users were doing before your app, how they discovered you, and what outcome they hoped for leads to sharper messaging, better onboarding, and stronger products.

💡 Emotions drive retention

Functional goals matter, but emotional and social motivations are often what bring people back. Whether it’s the satisfaction of consistency, the joy of social encouragement, or the comfort of belonging to a community, understanding these deeper drivers can differentiate apps and supercharge retention.

🚧 Activation is about showing early progress

The faster users feel they’re moving toward success, the more likely they are to stick around. That first “win” doesn’t have to be a full result — even completing onboarding, customizing a plan, or getting a small early insight can be enough to hook users into a habit loop.

📈 Monetization follows real value

Users are willing to pay more when they perceive clear, life-improving value. Understanding the different jobs users are hiring your app to do can unlock smarter pricing, better feature tiers, and easier upsells. The closer you align pricing with meaningful outcomes, the more sustainable your growth.

About Daphe Tideman:

📈 Freelance growth advisor and consultant helping subscription app businesses navigate various growth challenges.

💼 Daphne helps startups improve their activation, retention, and monetization strategies with the jobs-to-be-done framework.

💡 “So many apps are constantly talking about, ‘we have this feature, that feature…’ — but that's not why people use your app.”

👋  Website

Resources:

• Improve your Conversions by Finding Message-Market Fit (Webinar)

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:

[0:48] Job done: How the jobs-to-be-done framework should frame your product development.

[3:04] Survey says: Why the most valuable feedback about your app comes from your most engaged users.

[7:06] Emotional impact: Why appealing to users’ emotional and social needs is a better driver of conversions and retention than describing app features.

[11:07] Good communication: How the jobs-to-be-done framework can (and should) influence your app messaging strategy.

[16:16] Personal touch: Developing user personas, creating individualized onboarding experiences, and testing ad copy in Meta.
[35:56] Removing blockers: Why the up-front cost and time commitment of user interviews can save you money in the long term.
[43:25] Active users: How understanding your users’ jobs to be done can influence your activation, re-activation, and retention strategies.
[54:55] Show me the money: Identifying the jobs-to-be-done of high-paying users can help you improve user LTV and develop appropriate pricing packages.

Top Takeaways:

💸 ROI-first thinking helps teams prioritize what actually moves the needle
Every project has a cost - whether or not you calculate it. Estimating the ROI of a sprint, even with rough assumptions, can reveal when you’re investing $50K of dev time into a feature with minimal upside. It’s not about forecasting with precision, it’s about using basic math to avoid chasing ideas that won’t pay off.

⚾ Big swings take more than one try
Launching a major feature is rarely a one-and-done success. The biggest wins often come after multiple iterations - refining the UX, testing variations, learning from early data. Too many teams ship once and move on. But if there are signs of life, sticking with it for a few rounds is often where the real gains are made.

⏳ Churn math reveals the ceiling on your growth
If you’re adding 500 users per month and churn is 10%, your max subscriber base is 5,000. It’s simple math, but easy to overlook when topline numbers are growing. Looking at cohorts and long-term retention curves helps you spot when you’re approaching that ceiling - and whether you’re building a durable business or just replacing churned users.

🧵 Small UX improvements can beat big features
Rewriting confusing checkout error messages took just two days and lifted revenue by 1%. Polishing key flows like onboarding or paywall views often delivers a better return than shipping something new. If every user hits a flow, making it smoother can have an outsized impact on conversion and retention.

🚀 The fastest team wins, not the most secretive
Worried someone will copy your idea? Don’t be. The teams that win are the ones who move faster, not the ones who keep ideas hidden. Speed matters more than secrecy. Whether you’re validating a viral feature with TikTok mockups or running a rough A/B test, moving quickly lets you learn, adjust, and stay ahead.

About Dan Layfield: 

✍️ Founder of Subscription Index, a blog that breaks down the strategy, math, and real-world lessons behind successful subscription products.

🧠 Dan helps startups grow revenue by optimizing retention, reducing churn, and making smarter product bets rooted in ROI.

💡 “Your company will not be profitable ever if the output of your sprints doesn’t exceed the cost of your sprints.”

👋  LinkedIn

Resources:

The Hidden Math of Churn: Why You Can’t Scale Past $1M — Subscription Index blog post

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:

[1:03] Over/under — The importance of estimating the ROI of your product development efforts in advance.

[6:39] Making a splash: The pros and cons of building features in order to get attention on social media or in the press.

[12:49] Sweat the small stuff: Why fixing “small” issues with your user experience can lead to big payoffs.

[19:41] Hitting a ceiling: How to calculate your company’s maximum subscriber base based on your monthly new users and churn rate.

[24:03] The long game: Accounting for long-term users (“locals”) versus short-term users (“tourists”) in your growth ceiling estimates.

[32:11] Good use: How the degree of product-market fit for your app affects your churn rate.

[37:40] User activation: Mitigating churn by providing a great onboarding experience and giving users early wins.

[39:21] Money talks: Why auditing your pricing tiers and payment processing systems can significantly bolster your bottom line.

Top Takeaways:
🤖 New tech, new apps – AI isn’t just making apps smarter. It’s enabling new categories entirely.
Apps built around real-time interaction, emotional context, and personalized content wouldn’t have been possible just a year ago. That means product-market fit can emerge in spaces that didn’t even exist before.

🎨 Design spreads – Great visuals are for distribution, not just decoration.
Memorable characters, animations, or interfaces can make your app instantly recognizable in screenshots, social videos, or App Store listings. Strong creative amplifies word-of-mouth.

💸 Monetization pushes clarity – Charging early forces your product to stand up on its own.
When you’re paying for AI infrastructure, you can’t wait to figure out value. Monetizing quickly reveals which users are getting enough utility to stick around and where the gaps are in your experience.

📈 TikTok still works – For the right product, UGC beats polish.
Test fast, post often, and watch what takes off. Lo-fi creator content can outperform paid campaigns, especially if your app is visual and easy to explain. One viral post can change your growth curve overnight.

🧠 Voice AI is tough to fake – Real conversation needs more than an API call.
Delivering a fast, natural back-and-forth requires layered systems: memory lookup, tone control, real-time rendering, and low-latency streaming. It’s a technical challenge and a competitive moat.

About Ajay Mehta:

👽 Co-Founder of Portola, the creators of Tolan—an AI companion app that offers personalized, engaging, and fun experiences.

📈 Ajay is passionate about AI’s potential to revolutionize consumer apps, focusing on building emotionally resonant, interactive experiences. 

💡 “Something that AI really allows you to do is make a consumer experience that just feels like there is totally something on the other side that knows you, understands you.”

👋  LinkedIn and Twitter

Follow us on X: 

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:

[1:10] Origin story: How Ajay and the Portola team developed the AI alien buddy app, Tolan.

[7:38] Cash flow: Why the Tolan team secured venture funding instead of bootstrapping.
[11:36] I, Robot: How AI is changing the app landscape and why AI companion apps are especially promising.
[16:36] Cost/Benefit: The costs associated with running an AI app forced Tolan to monetize early (but that wasn’t a bad thing).
[21:17] Onboarding excellence: How Tolan’s onboarding experience fosters deep personalization and long-term retention.
[28:08] Going viral: Why an effective TikTok marketing strategy can dramatically lower your cost per acquisition.
[39:34] A league of their own: Why competition is relatively low (for now) for AI companion apps.
[47:39] Race to the top: Raising venture capital and using the upfront cash infusion to iterate and beat out the competition (à la Duolingo).
[51:18] Tolan 2 (The Sequel): AI engines have the potential to be spun off into multiple app businesses.