In this episode, David offers a reframe that actually makes sense for neurodivergent minds: self-esteem isn't about confidence or positivity. It's about something more fundamental — the belief that you will survive what happens next. That one shift changes how you start things, why waiting to feel ready keeps you stuck, and why you can feel completely competent in one area of your life and utterly lost in another.

Isabelle works through it live — and it gets uncomfortably specific. The kind of specific that might stop you mid-listen and make you go: oh. that's me.

In this episode:

• Why "believe in yourself" feels abstract or impossible for ADHD and neurodivergent brains — and why that's not on you
• The difference between self-esteem and self-efficacy, and which one actually gets you moving
• Why your confidence can feel solid one day and completely gone by 4pm
• How ADHD variability makes traditional self-esteem advice quietly set you up to fail
• Why doing something imperfectly still builds more trust in yourself than waiting until you're ready
• Why outsourcing might actually be a self-esteem strategy — and when it isn't

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Wait, What's That? Here are some of the terms and people mentioned in this episode explained:

Albert Bandura — The psychologist behind self-efficacy theory. Shifted the conversation from "feeling good about yourself" to something more specific: your belief that you can handle a particular situation. David respectfully disagrees with part of his model. In the best way.

Self-efficacy — Your belief that you can act and influence an outcome. The key thing: it's built through experience, not feelings. You don't have to feel ready to start building it.

Self-esteem (reframed) — Traditionally, how you feel about yourself. David's version: the belief that you'll survive the outcome — even when things go sideways. That shift makes it possible to act without needing confidence first.

VAST (Variable Attentional Stimulation Seeking Trait) — From ADHD 2.0 by Hallowell & Ratey. A reframe of ADHD as variability of attention rather than a deficit. Your ability to focus, engage, and follow through shifts depending on context, stimulation, and internal state. Sound familiar?

Norepinephrine — A neurotransmitter tied to attention and alertness. More involved in your moment-to-moment sense of I can do this than most people realize.

Metacognition — Thinking about your own thinking. Useful for understanding your patterns. Also a reliable path to an overthinking spiral at 11pm. Both things are true.

Self-perpetuating feedback loop — When thoughts, feelings, and behaviors keep reinforcing each other. Not acting builds doubt. Acting — even imperfectly — starts building something else instead.

Neophobic — The very human tendency to resist new things. Especially loud when there's no precedent and the stakes feel like they have no bottom.

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💬 What's something you know you're good at — but still can't quite say out loud without adding a disclaimer? Tell us in the comments.

🎧  Follow Something Shiny: ADHD for more conversations that help you understand your ADHD and remind you—you were never too much.

If you’ve ever felt exhausted from constantly managing yourself around other people or if you’ve ever needed a reminder that belonging is not extra, it’s foundational… this one’s for you!

Here's what's coming your way:

• Why being around like-minded neurodivergent people can feel like coming home
• A clear breakdown of what high masking feels like from the inside
• Why shared experience can make it easier to stop overexplaining and start relaxing
• How community can help you stand up for yourself in ways you might not otherwise
• The story behind Learning Curb and why its whole mission is rooted in access
• A reminder that the things you needed most can become the very things you build for someone else 

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Wait, What's That? Here are some of the terms and people mentioned in this episode explained:

Neurodiversity Alliance: An organization that supports neurodivergent young people through leadership, mentorship, and advocacy. In this conversation, it’s also the community space where David and Isabelle first connected with Avari. Learn more at TheNDAlliance.org. 

Dyslexia: A learning disability that affects reading, spelling, and language processing. In this conversation, Avari talks about how meaningful it was when other dyslexic people heard her speak not just about the hard parts, but the good parts too. 

Dysgraphia: A learning disability that affects writing. Here, it’s part of the group of neurodivergent experiences Avari has already been advocating around and building resources for. 

The “curb cut” effect: The idea behind Learning Curb’s name. Curb cuts were added to sidewalks after the Americans with Disabilities Act to support wheelchair users, but they ended up helping lots of other people too — parents with strollers, skateboarders, cyclists, and delivery workers. Avari uses that as a model for education: when you lower the barrier to access for the most vulnerable people, everybody benefits. 

High masking: Constantly adjusting your behavior, communication, or presentation so you seem more acceptable, understandable, or “normal” to other people. Avari describes doing this in neurotypical spaces and contrasts it with the relief of not needing to do it so much in neurodivergent community. 

Neurospicy: A playful community term some neurodivergent people use for themselves. Isabelle uses it here while talking about the way neurospicy conversations can go from breadcrumb-level sharing to a full French dip hoagie in about two seconds. 

Narrative Reasoning: Avari’s phrase for the way her brain explains things through story, analogy, and comparison that other people can understand. 

Neurotypical: People whose brains work in ways that are more socially expected or normalized. In this conversation, Avari contrasts neurotypical spaces with neurodivergent ones, especially in terms of masking, safety, and how much self-management is required. 

Love bombing: A phrase Avari uses jokingly while talking about how quickly people bonded at the Neurodiversity Alliance. In context, she’s naming the relief of being able to connect intensely without immediately worrying that it’s “too much.” 

“English is just three languages in a trench coat”: Avari’s explanation for why English spelling is chaos, and Isabelle immediately clocks it as the best saying ever!

Night Witches: The nickname given by German soldiers during World War II to the Soviet Union’s all-female 588th Night Bomber Regiment, known for flying dangerous nighttime bombing missions against Nazi forces. Isabelle brings them up as an example of the kind of fully formed special-interest tangent that can come pouring out once someone takes the bait in a neurodivergent conversation. 

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💬 Have you ever found a space where you realized you didn’t have to mask so hard? Drop your story in the comments on Spotify.

🎧  Follow Something Shiny: ADHD for more conversations that help you understand your ADHD and remind you—you were never too much.

Avari shares what it was like to be diagnosed with ADHD and dyslexia at 16 after struggling for most of her life, and why the worst thing she thought she might hear was that something wasn't actually wrong. David and Isabelle unpack why that fear lands so deeply, especially for high-achieving, high-masking kids who get told they’re just too anxious or “you'll be fine” while they’re privately drowning.

Avari also shares how that late diagnosis lit a fire under LearningCurb.org, the resource hub she built so other neurodivergent kids and families don’t have to spend a year desperately searching for answers while they’re still in the middle of struggling.

If you’ve ever thought, “I know something’s different, but I don’t know what”… if you’ve ever worried that a label would make things worse… or if you’ve ever needed someone to say there’s a reason this has felt this hard, this one’s for you.

Here's what's coming your way:

• Why the label you fear can sometimes be the thing that finally brings relief
• A powerful breakdown of what it means to grow up seeing only your deficits and not your strengths
• Why high-masking, high-achieving kids can get missed for years
• How research, self-understanding, and advocacy can change the trajectory of someone’s life
• What Avari built after diagnosis — and why it matters for neurodivergent kids and families now

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Wait, What's That? Here are some of the terms and people mentioned in this episode explained:

Neurodiversity Alliance: An organization that supports neurodivergent young people through leadership, mentorship, and advocacy. In this conversation, it’s also the community space where David and Isabelle first connected with Avari. Learn more at TheNDAlliance.org.

Dyslexia: A learning disability that affects reading, spelling, and language processing. In this episode, Avari talks about finally having language for why reading and spelling had felt so hard for so long.

Dysgraphia: A learning disability that affects writing. It can show up in handwriting, spelling, and getting thoughts onto the page. Avari references how physically hard writing tasks could be for her.

LearningCurb.org: Avari’s resource hub for neurodivergent kids and families. She created it to give people one place to find tools, support, and information for different neurodiverse needs.

Interconnected Thinking: Avari’s phrase for the way her brain naturally links ideas, experiences, and patterns together. She talks about this as one of her neurodivergent strengths.

Hyperfocus: A common ADHD experience where attention gets locked onto something intensely. Avari mentions that she used to assume everyone experienced hyperfocus the way she did.

Eye Diagnosis for Slow Tracking: A diagnosis related to how the eyes track across a page or visual field. In Avari’s case, that diagnosis helped her access extra time on tests before she later received her ADHD and dyslexia diagnoses.

Trauma Mastery: A phrase Isabelle uses to describe the way people sometimes make meaning out of painful experiences by using what they learned to protect or help others.

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💬 Have you ever gotten an answer or label that finally made your life make more sense? Drop your story in the comments on Spotify.

🎧  Follow Something Shiny: ADHD for more conversations that help you understand your ADHD and remind you—you were never too much.

Because this episode is really about more than moving. It’s about that awful, disorienting in-between where something is objectively good… and your nervous system is still like, “Absolutely not.” David breaks down why change itself can land as painful, why losing patterns can feel like losing your footing, and why so many neurospicy folks get slammed by overwhelm before the new environment has had a chance to make sense yet.

And instead of just naming the problem, they get to what actually can help. The conversation gets into why your brain may need to physically build new patterns before anything feels manageable again, why body doubling can interrupt the buffering, why visual overwhelm matters more than people think, and how different neurospicy brains need totally different systems in order to function.

If you’ve ever been excited about a change and still felt totally wrecked by it. Or, if you’ve ever looked around and thought, “Why does this feel so hard when this is supposed to be good?” this one will probably hit home.

Here's what's coming your way:

•  Why “good change” can still feel painful, disorienting, and weirdly grief-y for ADHD and AuDHD brains
• A really helpful breakdown of how routines, environment, and repeated actions quietly hold daily life together
• Language for the specific kind of overwhelm that happens when nothing feels automatic anymoreWhy unpacking can create instant buffering, shutdown, and decision fatigue
• How body doubling, music, and visual clarity can help interrupt overwhelm and make starting easier
• Why different brains need wildly different organization systems--and why that doesn’t mean anyone is doing it wrong

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Wait, What’s That? Here are some of the terms and people mentioned in this episode explained:

Bobby: Isabelle’s husband.

Sarah: A partner in David’s practice. David brings up a conversation with Sarah while wondering out loud whether change can actually register as pain in the brain. 

Robin: David’s partner, who comes up while he’s describing the home setup that helps his own brain keep track of where things are. 

Clutterbug YouTube: The decluttering channel Isabelle shouts out because those videos have basically become her fake body-doubling companions while unpacking. https://www.youtube.com/@Clutterbug

Body Doubling: A support strategy where doing a task gets easier because someone else is there with you — even virtually. Isabelle talks about using decluttering videos that way during the move. 

Object Permanence: The very real neurospicy experience of something effectively disappearing once it’s boxed up, put away, or moved out of its usual place.

Externalized Memory: David’s phrase for needing to physically put something somewhere yourself in order to actually remember where it is later. 

Procedural Memory: Isabelle’s way of describing how much she relies on repeated physical action — reach here, plug this in there, turn this direction — instead of remembering things abstractly.

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💬 Has a “good change” ever completely overwhelmed your brain at first? Drop your story in the comments on Spotify.

🎧 Follow Something Shiny: ADHD for more conversations that help you understand your ADHD and remind you — you were never too much.

Yeah. That feeling is way more common than you think.

This week, David and Isabelle are back on stage at the Neurodiversity Alliance Leadership Summit in Denver for the second part of their live conversation with Jesse Sanchez, President of the Neurodiversity Alliance. Jesse has been part of this community for years as a mentor, leader, and now the person helping guide the organization forward. The Leadership Summit is where Neurodiversity Alliance mentors and student leaders from across the country gather for training, storytelling, and connection. It’s a room full of neurodivergent students learning how to talk about their brains with confidence—and how to help younger kids do the same.

In this part of the live conversation, Safia Mohammed, a Brooklyn-based nursing student and Neurodiversity Alliance Student Ambassador who’s been part of the community for several years, joins the conversation. She shares her story about something a lot of neurodivergent people wrestle with: the uncomfortable feeling that needing support somehow means you're doing something wrong.

Safia talks about her experience first received an IEP (Individualized Education Program) in elementary school. At the time, it felt confusing. She was being pulled out of class for extra help and didn’t really understand why. And like a lot of neurodivergent kids, she started wondering something was wrong with her. David and Isabelle unpack why moments like that are so common in the neurodivergent experience, from the stigma around accommodations to the deeply ingrained belief that success only counts if it’s hard.

If you’ve ever hesitated to ask for help because you didn’t want to feel like you were getting an advantage, this conversation might shift how you think about support and what it’s actually there to do.

Here's what's coming your way:

• Safia’s story of receiving an IEP and why it felt confusing when she was younger
• The moment that changed how she understood accommodations
• Why so many neurodivergent people feel shame around getting support
• How stigma around accommodations keeps people from advocating for what they need

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Wait, What's That? Here are some of the terms and people mentioned in this episode explained:

IEP (Individualized Education Program): A formal education plan used in U.S. schools to provide accommodations and support for students with learning differences or disabilities. These supports can include extra time on tests, alternative learning environments, or additional instructional support designed to help students demonstrate what they actually know.

Accommodations: Adjustments made in school or work environments that allow people with learning differences or disabilities to access the same opportunities as others. Examples include extended time on exams, quieter testing environments, or different ways of presenting information.

Neurodiversity Alliance (formerly Eye to Eye): An organization where neurodivergent young adults and teens mentor younger neurodivergent kids through art projects and advocacy work. The rebrand reflects what they actually do: build an alliance of humans across the neurodivergent spectrum who know how to tell their full stories, vulnerabilities and superpowers included.

OI: A term used by members of the Neurodiversity Alliance community to refer to the organization’s annual leadership summit where mentors and student leaders gather for training and connection.

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💬 Have you ever had a moment where getting support changed how you saw your abilities? Tell us your story in the comments on Spotify.

🎧 Follow Something Shiny: ADHD for more conversations that help you understand your ADHD and remind you—you were never too much.

This week, David and Isabelle are taking you inside the Neurodiversity Alliance Leadership Summit in Denver for a special live recording with Jesse Sanchez, President of the Neurodiversity Alliance (formerly Eye to Eye). If Jesse's name sounds familiar, that's because he joined us recently to talk about mentorship and the intersectionality of neurodivergence with race, class, and systemic barriers. This time, we're bringing you the live conversation that started it all!

The Neurodiversity Alliance brings together neurodivergent young adults and teens who mentor younger neurodivergent kids through art projects, advocacy, and identity work. The ND Alliance Leadership Summit is where their mentors and leaders gather for training, and David and Isabelle got to do a live podcast on stage in front of the whole group.

What "finding your people" actually means when you have ADHD is more than just support. It's about finally stopping the cycle of feeling like a broken, defective version of a person and starting to feel like you belong. Jesse talks about showing up to his first summit 15 years ago "ADHD curious," terrified he wouldn't get the diagnosis and therefore wouldn't get to be part of this incredible community. Isabelle tears up remembering the moment David brought her to her first ND Alliance event and she realized, "Oh. OH. This is me." And David reflects on two decades of watching this organization do something he's never seen anywhere else: teach neurodivergent kids that being different doesn't mean being deficient.

This isn't a "yay, you found support!" episode. This is about finding your SHAPE (your superpowers, your heart, your abilities, your personality, your experiences) and realizing your worth has absolutely nothing to do with how much money you make or how well you perform. It's about walking into a room where you don't have to mask, where everyone's fidgeting, and where "wait, you do that too?" is the most healing sentence in the English language.

If you've ever felt inadequate, like you're failing at being a person, or like you don't quite fit anywhere, grab tissues. This one's for you.

Here's what's coming your way:

• Jesse's journey from "ADHD curious" to diagnosed adult to president of the organization that changed his life
• Why the fear of NOT being neurodivergent enough to belong is just as real as the fear of having ADHD
• The moment Isabelle realized she had ADHD and David said "welcome to the community" (she's still not over it)
• What "finding your SHAPE" actually means and why it's the key to career alignment and calling
• Why neurodiversity creates connection across race, class, and identity in ways other affinity spaces sometimes struggle with
• What Jesse would tell his 10-year-old self (spoiler: "You are worthy and loved beyond measure, and no one can take that from you")
• How the Neurodiversity Alliance is literally changing education by teaching kids to talk about their brains with mastery instead of shame

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Wait, What's That? Here are some of the terms and people mentioned in this episode explained:

Neurodiversity Alliance (formerly Eye to Eye): An organization where neurodivergent young adults and teens mentor younger neurodivergent kids through art projects and advocacy work. The rebrand reflects what they actually do: build an alliance of humans across the neurodivergent spectrum who know how to tell their full stories, vulnerabilities and superpowers included.

"ADHD Curious": Jesse's term for showing up to his first summit without a formal diagnosis but knowing something was going on. He was literally exploring his own brain to figure out if neurodivergence explained his life.

Masking: Hiding or suppressing your natural neurodivergent behaviors to fit neurotypical expectations. Isabelle talks about being hyper-aware she's masking on stage but also being able to fidget and move in ways that feel freeing instead of shameful.

The "SHAPE" Framework: An acrostic Jesse uses for career alignment

• S = Superpowers (what you're naturally great at)
• H = Heart (what motivates you)
• A = Abilities (what you can actually do)
• P = Personality (how you show up in the world)
• E = Experiences (what you bring from your journey)

Job vs. Career vs. Calling: Jesse breaks it down: a job pays the bills, a career is something you're invested in growing long-term, and a calling is something bigger than you (something you feel pulled toward whether you like it or not).

Metacognitive Skills: The ability to think about your own thinking (understanding how your brain works, what you need, and how you learn best). The ND Alliance teaches kids to get really good at talking about their learning styles instead of hiding them.

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💬 Have you had a "finding your people" moment? Drop your story in the comments on Spotify.

🎧 Follow Something Shiny: ADHD for more conversations that help you understand your ADHD and remind you—you were never too much.

Missed Part 1 of this conversation? Catch up here.

Jesse shares his own story: growing up with a single mom who left home at nine, a father in federal prison, navigating the world as a first-gen, low-income, multiracial kid—and how none of the incredible educational access programs he benefited from ever addressed the neurodivergent piece. David drops the "glasses metaphor" that'll make you rethink everything. And Isabelle connects the dots between pulling all-nighters, calling it a moral failing, and why our school system was literally designed to create worker bees during the Industrial Revolution (spoiler: neurodivergent brains were never meant to fit that mold).

If you've ever felt like an imposter for doing things differently, this episode is your permission slip to stop hiding!

Here's what's coming your way:

• Why real mentorship is exposure to a reality you didn't know existed—not instructions on how to succeed
• How seeing a successful neurodivergent person changes the way you view yourself (and why that matters more than any advice)
• The intersectionality we're not talking about: neurodivergence, unemployment, incarceration, economic insecurity, and social justice
• Jesse's powerful story of intergenerational neurodivergence and why he's bringing neuro-inclusive practices to NYC public schools
• Why your all-nighters aren't a character flaw—they're an accommodation (and how that reframe changes everything)
• The glasses metaphor: imagine never getting glasses until your 30s. That's undiagnosed ADHD.
• What Jesse would tell his 5-year-old self entering the school system (grab tissues for this one)

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Wait—What's That? Here are some of the terms and people mentioned in this episode explained:

Mentorship (the real kind): Not lectures about success—it's living life together and taking the behaviors you like while leaving the rest. It's "try my biscuits and gravy" energy. Exposing someone to a reality they didn't have before.

Normalization: Making something feel normal by seeing it modeled by others. When you see another neurodivergent person succeed while doing things differently, it normalizes your own approach and reduces shame.

Moral Failing: The story undiagnosed neurodivergent people tell themselves: "I pull all-nighters because I'm lazy/broken/bad"—instead of recognizing it as an accommodation for how your brain works.

Accommodation: A strategy that helps you work with your brain instead of against it. Pulling an all-nighter isn't cheating—it's an accommodation. Just like glasses.

Intergenerational Neurodivergence: ADHD and other neurodivergent traits often run in families. Jesse talks about his mom's undiagnosed ADHD and how neurodivergence intersects with intergenerational trauma and survival.

Intersectionality: How different identities (race, class, neurodivergence) overlap and create unique experiences. Jesse emphasizes how neurodivergence intersects with being low-income, first-gen, Latino—and how that's overlooked in social justice work.

Social Capital: The networks and resources you access through community. The neurodivergent community shares social capital—connecting first-gen students with Ivy League students, leveling the playing field.

The School System's Origins: Our current education system was designed during the Industrial Revolution to create efficient worker bees for factories. Everything from the bells to the desks to the subjects was built for output and performance—not for neurodivergent brains. Learn more about the factory model of education: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factory_model_school

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💬 What would you say to your younger self entering the school system? Jesse's answer brought Isabelle and David to tears. Drop yours in the comments on Spotify.

🎧 Follow Something Shiny: ADHD for more conversations that help you understand your ADHD and remind you—you were never too much.

If you've ever felt like a superhero one day and a deflated balloon the next, this one's for you. Isabelle shares the reframe that changed everything: what if your scattered brain isn't broken—it's actually trying to protect you? And here's the twist: the thing that pulled her out of the spiral was recording this very episode. Sometimes serving others is how we save ourselves.

Here's what's coming your way:

• Why ADHD brains can be superhuman in the first 24-48 hours of chaos (and why the crash is inevitable)

• What happens to your inner critic when you lose your feedback loops—and why it gets so vicious

• How to recognize when your brain is begging you to stop asking it to do too much (before you completely crash)

• Why hating routine while desperately needing it is the most brutal ADHD paradox

• The one tiny shift that can pull you out of the spiral when everything feels impossible

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Wait—What's That? Here are some of the terms mentioned in this episode explained:

Here are some of the terms and people mentioned in this episode explained:

Neurospicy: ADHD/neurodivergent community slang for having a brain that works differently. A playful, lighter way to say neurodivergent—because sometimes you need to be able to laugh at your beautiful, chaotic brain.

Break in Routine: When your daily structure gets disrupted and suddenly you realize you were using that routine to survive all along. For ADHD brains, losing structure can be destabilizing even when you thought you hated having it in the first place.

Paradox: The ADHD experience of hating routine while absolutely needing it to function. You resist structure until it's gone, and then everything falls apart—which is exactly what makes it so brutal.

Feedback Loop: External validation or confirmation that helps you know you're on the right track. Without it, ADHD brains often default to the harshest possible self-judgment—like "you've made the worst decision" even when you probably made a fine decision.

Deflated Balloon: The crash that comes after days of crisis mode. The superhuman energy is gone, you can't finish sentences, and everything feels impossible. It's the inevitable comedown after running on pure adrenaline.

Mushy: When your brain feels foggy, slow, and unable to process normally. Not broken—just begging you to stop asking it to do too much. Sometimes mushy is your brain's way of protecting you.

Bobby: Isabelle's husband and co-producer of the podcast. When she mentions he suggested recording this episode, it's part of why you're hearing this raw, real-time account of ADHD in crisis—the kind of messy, honest moment that might help you feel less alone in your own chaos.

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💬 How does YOUR ADHD show up when chaos hits? Superhuman for 48 hours then can't finish a sentence? Let us know by leaving a comment on Spotify! We want to hear your crisis stories.

🎧 Follow Something Shiny: ADHD for more conversations that help you understand your ADHD and remind you—you were never too much.

Jesse Sanchez, President of the Neurodiversity Alliance, joins hosts Isabelle Richards and David Kessler to talk about his journey from "wait, am I broken?" confusion in college to leading a national movement that's literally changing (and saving) lives through peer mentorship and community. And yes, we have the data to back that up.

Jesse gets incredibly real about what it was like to need accommodations for years without anyone explaining why, and how finding other neurodivergent people who just got it completely transformed the way he saw himself.  They also get into what it actually looks like to unmask and take care of yourself in professional settings—like when Jesse collapsed on a couch between high-stakes donor meetings at the Neurodiversity Leadership Summit with Isabelle and David there. It was beautiful:) And why that kind of authentic nervous system regulation isn't weakness—it's literally the accommodation your body needs.

Here's what's coming your way:

• Jesse's origin story with the Neurodiversity Alliance (formerly Eye to Eye) and why peer mentorship is so powerful
• The actual published research showing how mentorship protects neurodivergent middle schoolers from depression and boosts self-esteem (statistically significant, baby!)
• Why lying down with your feet up is one of the best nervous system hacks—and the full parasympathetic nerd-out on why it works
• How finding your people can fundamentally shift your identity from "I'm broken" to "I'm just wired different—and that's actually amazing"

Go to TheNDAlliance.org to explore student chapters, scholarships, paid internships, and leadership opportunities for neurodivergent students across the U.S.

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Wait—What's That? Here are some of the terms mentioned in this episode explained:

Neurodiversity Alliance (formerly Eye to Eye): A national student-led organization creating clubs on middle school, high school, and college campuses where neurodivergent students mentor younger students, build community, and flex their leadership skills.

Neurodiversity Leadership Summit: An annual gathering where neurodivergent students, leaders, and advocates come together to learn, connect, and celebrate neurodiversity. This is where Jesse melted on the couch and we all fell a little more in love with authentic self-care.

Parasympathetic Nervous System (Rest and Digest): The part of your nervous system that helps you calm down and recover after being activated. Isabelle breaks down how lying with your feet up literally forces blood back to your internal organs and tells your body "hey, no tiger here!"

Fight, Flight, or Freeze: Your body's automatic stress response that sends blood to your extremities so you can run or fight. When you're chronically activated (hello, masking all day), you need help switching back to rest mode.

Vagus Nerve: A major nerve running from your brain to your gut that plays a huge role in calming your nervous system. Certain positions (like lying down) stimulate it and help you regulate. Science is cool.

Disability Accommodations: Adjustments like extra time, quiet spaces, or flexible deadlines that level the playing field. Jesse talks about how reframing these from "crutch" to "right" was life-changing.

Positive Identity Development: A core focus of the Neurodiversity Alliance's work—helping students integrate their neurodivergence into their identity in a way that feels empowering, not shameful.

Statistical Significance: Research-speak for "this didn't happen by accident." Jesse shares data showing mentored students had significantly lower depression and higher self-esteem compared to non-mentored students. The protective effect against depression? Huge.

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🎧 Follow Something Shiny: ADHD for more conversations that help you understand your ADHD and remind you—you were never too much.

Russ Jones is back with Isabelle and David to go deeper into what actually works when ADHD makes even the smallest task feel impossible. You can go back and listen to part one of their conversation here.

Russ, ADHD wellness coach and creator of ADHD Big Brother, gets candid about his own patterns and tools—and how even with all his knowledge and experience, he still gets stuck sometimes. But instead of spiraling into shame or "just try harder" mode, this episode is about finding your way back to momentum without beating yourself up.

Here’s what's coming your way:

• How to use behavioral momentum to get moving again—by starting small and stacking tiny wins
• Why body doubling isn’t just helpful—it’s a core support strategy (especially on the hard days)
• The exact self-check-in Russ uses to stay consistent without self-blame—and how you can try it too

David also unpacks why these tools work from a neuroscience perspective, Isabelle shares her own struggles with task initiation, and the group unpacks how perfectionism can sneak in and sabotage even our best intentions!

Want to try Russ’s method? He shares a free downloadable guide called Ready, Set, Go! to help you start with the smallest possible step. You can get it by signing up for his newsletter at adhdbigbrother.com. You can also check out the ADHD Big Brother Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

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Wait—What’s That? Here are some of the terms mentioned in this episode you might want a quick refresher on:

CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy): A structured approach that helps identify and reframe unhelpful thoughts and behaviors. Russ talks about using CBT to take shame out of the equation and break tasks down into achievable steps.

ACT (Acceptance and Commitment Therapy): A therapy modality that encourages accepting uncomfortable thoughts without judgment and taking action based on values. David and Isabelle briefly reference it while discussing internal self-talk.

Behavioral Momentum: A strategy where doing one small task can help you build enough mental energy to do the next one. Key concept discussed by Russ when he shares how to stack tiny wins.

Body Doubling: A method where simply doing a task alongside someone else (virtually or in person) helps increase focus and follow-through. Russ talks about this as a game-changing tool for him and his community.

Compassionate Check-Ins: A self-inquiry tool Russ uses regularly—quick moments to assess what’s working and what’s not, without self-judgment.

Russell Barkley: A prominent clinical psychologist known for his research on ADHD, mentioned by Isabelle while discussing the neurological underpinnings of executive dysfunction.

Coaching vs. Therapy: Russ clarifies that he’s a coach, not a therapist—he works from lived experience and ADHD-specific tools to help people build structure and momentum.

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🎧 Follow Something Shiny: ADHD for more conversations that help you understand your ADHD and remind you—you were never too much.

In this episode of Something Shiny: ADHD, David and Isabelle are joined by Russ Jones, creator of ADHD Big Brother, wellness coach, and no-BS accountability pro. Russ brings a unique humor and honesty to one of the hardest parts of living with ADHD—knowing what to do but still not being able to do it.

This conversation dives into:

• The motivation myth (and what actually helps ADHD brains move)
• Why “just try harder” never works
• The role of accountability—especially when it’s designed for you
• How shame becomes invisible architecture in your daily life
• The shift that happens when someone believes in your ability to change

Russ isn’t here to hand out hacks—he’s here to name what’s real, what’s hard, and what might help. Because sometimes the most useful tool is someone showing you that you’re not broken, you’ve just been using the wrong blueprint.

Want more from Russ? Visit ADHDBigBrother.com and check out the ADHD Big Brother Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

🎧 Follow Something Shiny: ADHD for more conversations that help you understand your ADHD and remind you—you were never too much.

We're joined again by therapist Grace Gautier, a trans woman who works closely with trans and neurodivergent communities. Last week the group cracked open the shame so many of us carry about being “too much” or “not enough” and began to see those traits not as flaws, but as survival strategies. If you haven’t heard that one yet, listen here. It’s a grounding prequel to this one—especially if you’ve ever felt like you had to earn your way into belonging. This episode follows that path even deeper! Because once you name the systems that shaped you, the question becomes: now what?

It's a conversation about internalized ableism, pushing through pain to prove worth, and the quiet (and sometimes loud) practice of unmasking. Not everywhere. Not all at once. Just somewhere. 

Together, they unpack:

• Why we equate doing hard things with being good enough
• How ableism hides in everyday pressure and perfectionism
• What it looks like to stop chasing ease and start honoring honesty
• The quiet power of choosing to show up as yourself

If you've ever felt stuck over performing while quietly falling apart, this conversation might be a the paradigm shift you need.

🎧 Follow Something Shiny: ADHD for more conversations that help you understand your ADHD and remind you, you were never too much.

In this episode of Something Shiny: ADHD, therapist Grace Gautier joins Isabelle Richards and David Kessler for a deeply human conversation about what it means to hide your corners to stay connected. Grace, a trans woman who works closely with trans and neurodivergent communities, puts language to something so many of us have felt but couldn’t name: carceral logic—that cultural instinct to isolate or correct those who struggle, instead of shifting the environment to support them.

We talk about what happens when systems teach us to monitor ourselves before anyone else can. How masking gets confused for maturity. How survival strategies get mislabeled as flaws. And why returning to connection—not perfection—is the real work of healing.

We explore:

• The overlap between neurodivergent and trans lived experiences
• Why we learn to tuck away the most beautiful, vital parts of ourselves
• The difference between being managed and being met
• How community becomes the repair

David brings in the metaphor of the uncarved block—this tender image of a version of you untouched by the sanding-down of social expectation. Grace recognizes herself immediately. She traces how her sensory overwhelm, emotional intensity, and clutter-as-memory weren’t signs of dysfunction—they were adaptations. Signals. Ways of being.

Grace also shares the ache of her father’s deportation and the clarity that arrived when she was finally diagnosed with ADHD later in life. Suddenly, things made sense. She didn’t need to try harder—she needed support that didn’t punish her nervous system.

By the end of this conversation, you'll realize the parts you were taught to hide were actually never flaws to fix, but rather truths you were carrying alone. What shifts when you stop mistaking survival for failure? What changes when you see your ADHD traits not as obstacles, but as signals? Maybe, for the first time, things make sense. And maybe that sense brings a kind of peace you didn’t know you were allowed to feel.

🎧 Follow Something Shiny: ADHD wherever you get your podcasts for conversations that help you understand your ADHD and feel more at home in your brain.

Stephanie Sarkis is an ADHD expert who also has ADHD 

 X-Men and more on Patrick Stewart

The American Psychological Association vote on 'homosexuality' being listed as a diagnosable mental disorder in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM) happened back in the LATE 80's (WHAAAATTTTT? yes).--there is a long history to depathologizing sexual identities, deeply impacted by tons of activism and advocacy. For more, you can see this NIH article on this history.

Dungeon Crawler Carl series

Cats getting stuck on trees because of claw shape -- fascinatingly, going down backwards is a skill some cats can learn. Also, here is this website: Catrescueguy.com. *(you're welcome)*

The amazing enneagram book Isabelle was trying to remember the title of -- The Unfiltered Enneagram by Elizabeth Orr

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

Isabelle is coming in hot. She continues to explore her reaction to a podcast episode she listened to recently, Armchair Expert with guest Suzanne O’Sullivan on overdiagnosis, which went from covering seizure disorders to ADHD and autism, especially high-masking autism, real quick.  She is so frustrated that a non-expert on ADHD—someone like O’Sullivan, whose expertise is working with epilepsy and seizure disorders, has now spent so much time talking about ADHD and autism when that is not an area of expertise. David names that he thinks this is an important conversation to have, because we are validating the other perspectives. There is a medical model of disease sets us up to want to oppose or eradicate the ‘disease;’ where things like neurodevelopment conditions like ADHD and autism are not something to be ‘cured’ or ‘fixed.” David makes the comparison, its like a bunch of people sitting and talking about going to Mexico when no one has ever been there—cultural representation. For example, someone has mild amounts of anxiety throughout the day. They understand this anxiety as having ADHD. They use ADHD interventions to help them and they found a community, and it makes sense and they feel better, it works for them. And then someone comes up with a reason to say that person does not have ADHD, that this definition does not apply—why are we being so careful when it comes to gatekeeping diversity, including neurodiversity?  This wonderful person that David met at a training, named Shay, asked: is there anyone that is neurotypical? We could think of the difference between traits and states. And then he thought about personal examples. He doesn’t know if there is someone "neurotypical." Would it to be less shocking that people have different neurological needs or educational differences if we recognized that there may be no 'one' baseline or group to compare everything to? And how quickly we dismiss difference--like knowing that because David listened to books, the argument that what he did was not 'reading'--but we get back to actual question, which is...what was the task, and did it get done?  Often, talking about the fantasy of how ADHD looks or how its supposed to be, it's more about other people. A lot of people with ADHD believe that if its easy for them, they’re cheating. Because its supposed to be hard. Do most non-ADHD people think that way?  The debates are now that anxiety, bipolar disorder, OCD—these are neurological differences—they are also looking at causal factors to all these conditions that are not chosen. So is the only person who is ‘normal’ the person who has no feelings, reactions, or responses?  Someone who has no big responses to stimuli, someone who is antisocial? Isabelle does fall into the categorizing and black and white thinking, and how its a part of learning, to categorize and generalize. This is not dissimilar to how people talk about race, gender, and about culturally defined parts of experiences because we collectively make them a thing—maybe its myth making and collective storytelling. There is a gravitational pull to the idea of being neurotypical or mentally ‘well’ and then there’s good and bad. Isabelle wonders where the compassion goes? David speaks up—they have compassion. People are scared. People are scared and when we’re scared, we have a reflexive reactions. People have found safety or comfort in the label of ‘normal’ or ‘neurotypical,’ and they see difference as not good, and they’re really trying to, in their mind, help people in their messaging. Terror management theory: when you’re scared, you find a group of people who are like you and you band together to be less scared. So, there are a chunk of people out there who are getting very specific about who is in or out of the group.  David can have a lot of compassion for that fear, that fear about who gets to belong. But he also wants to speak to the neurodivergent person who is doing something you tell them will help—and it hurts them? It’s a real fear we carry. David uses the example of his mom—bless her heart (see the Southern US use of this phrase on many levels below)—who grew up being told the importance of having arch support in shoes, and so when David had flat feet, she had him use these inserts—David is not blaming his mom, she did the best she could—lots of people are told not to touch things, don’t go into the light. Every neurodivergent person has to have the fear “I’m doing this wrong, I’m in trouble, I’m doing something bad!” To little David: you know, you have flat feet, you have more stability around corners—but another voice would say “don’t tell anyone you have flat feet, it’s bad.” He has compassion for the fear people have that want everyone to be the same, to not stand out or be different, and there is also a fear that neurodivergent people sit with every day about whether or not they’re allowed to act the way they act. Isabelle names that the podcasters were saying “oh, these diagnoses are an excuse to then act in ways that are socially awkward.” Ahem. Isabelle describes how this feels like when she describes her inner workings to someone in all the steps she takes when she sits down next to someone, wondering if this is the right physical distance, is she staring at their eyebrows too long, is she pausing appropriately, etc.—and when she unmasks and reveals this, the person considers it a compliment to say “I couldn’t tell.” It’s the idea that someone outside of you knows more about your experience than you do. The way that diagnoses connect to power and gatekeeping for services and Isabelle makes the point that those who are saying “over diagnosis is dangerous”—to whom? On what planet are folks who are neurospicy getting enough of the supports and services and resources and access that they need? The system is already failing most of us. David names: this isn’t cancer, this isn’t people getting chemo erroneously. There is no danger in identification, it’s about getting our needs met. What do we do as a society to neglected people, and the more you know about your needs, the less of a danger being neglected becomes. This is a question of someone who knows a lot about things wandered over into another area and made bold statements without the expertise. Isabelle was extra miffed that she also dismissed the intersections of Autism, ADHD, POTS, hyper mobile Ehlers Danlos, and MCAS and ‘nonexistent’ —so damaging and harmful. These are real things, the interconnectedness of them is being actively researched, just because you are new to the party does not make something false or untrue. As David puts it, in the 70’s or 80’s, the APA took a vote to decide if being gay was good or bad, essentially (“do we keep gayness as a disorder?” Yes folks, this was that recently. GAH.). Now imagine someone was asleep for ten years and missed that memo and is now walking around looking at pride flags wondering “why are there so many openly gay people?” And sure, take pot shots at neurodivergence, because...

Isabelle references a podcast episode she listened to recently, Armchair Expert with guest Suzanne O’Sullivan on overdiagnosis. She brings up the idea of psychosomatic illness, and the example this epilepsy expert uses is that there are a certain percentage of cases of epilepsy that appear very different on brain scans, that appear to be psychologically caused (or psychosomatic). This is one of those confusing, stigmatized concepts—Isabelle would originally think that this means “made up.” But NO. What it means is that people are still experiencing the symptoms, are still suffering from symptoms of seizures, sometimes way worse than those who on EEGs, etc. appear to have ‘epilepsy.’ It is the opposite of ‘in your head,’ it is very real. The same goes for the placebo effect, which is that when they do studies on medications or treatments, they have people do something neutral or take a sugar pill or a pill with no active ingredients. A percentage of people in every case will see symptom improvement or a positive effect. This does not mean it’s made up, it means the mind is powerful and just because we don’t know how something works doesn’t mean it doesn’t bring relief. And the same goes with nocebo, or the way things can have an adverse or ill effect, too. But now David and Isabelle get to the other idea this author has, about how ADHD and autism and other diagnoses are being ‘over diagnosed,’ because, as the author states, autism used to mean something different than it does now, because now people later in life who are high masking are being diagnosed with it—and the cutoff points for diagnoses are being too muddled, and isn’t it (as the author puts it), “awful that kids will be labelled with these self-fulfilling prophecies” that will create limiting beliefs for them, isn’t it causing harm, can’t we meet kids needs without these labels? And more so, the cut off point should be “disablement.” But wait a minute, isn’t that pre-diabetes? But isn’t it like the biggest predictor of heroin use is milk consumption…because everyone who takes heroin used to drink milk. David wants to come at this. David wants more inclusive education, he doesn’t want smaller and smaller classrooms, and what to have a very diverse set of people in the room. A diverse group of people learning at once. To answer why do we need to label them? Because every person has different needs, we need labels to tailor education to each person. The more standardized it becomes the more it becomes marginalized. Stay in your lane, let people within the culture manage the stigma around the culture. “Can you just include someone from these communities?” A bunch of people talking about us and deciding what’s harming us without talking to us. Isabelle refers back to psychopharmacology and psychopathology class—you gotta learn a ton about diagnostic criteria and learn how to categorize the experiences of people your seeing. Isabelle’s professor was a neuropsychologist and was very into accurate language. You can look at diagnoses from a couple of different angles—why do we diagnosis? We need to have a standardized understanding of a group of experiences, so when we talk about it we all say “this is the part that we mean.” There needs to be some kind of shared consensus around what ADHD means. Cut off points could be true for insurance purposes, political, and financial, and for research and understanding, and it also is not all encompassing—but if you accurately sync a person up to a diagnosis, it gives them an understanding of a person that helps them. Everyone isn’t self-diagnosing. It’s the people who resonate with the experiences of those who are AuDHD or autistic or an ADHDer. David names that he loves the podcast (as does Isabelle, she’s a big archerry) and that the people on this podcast are falling into something society does, not necessarily leading society there, which is validating external manifestations of pain rather than internal frustration. David leans on the work of Marcus Soutra, with the idea that perhaps instead of thinking of things as diagnoses, it's more of an identification. We’re accurately identifying people.  Isabelle further details that they mention that mental health diagnoses go up when mental health awareness is spread. To which she wonders—what about how psychoeducation and awareness allow for people to be more vulnerable and feel safe disclosing what's really going on, internally? The example that ‘doesn’t everyone have a little ADHD’ is—-wrong. Nope, Not everyone. But maybe those who have untreated ADHD do? And with the example of Bill Gates identifying as autistic, and the author naming that she doesn’t see him as having struggles or disability, again, a very external definition—they have no clue about what he has gone through or what it is like to go through life not fully understanding yourself without such an identity. Autism and ADHD is not necessarily a learning difference 

Armchair Expert episode Isabelle is referencing

Suzanne O'Sullivan's book, The Age of Diagnosis

USEFUL DEFINITIONS
Psychosomatic - a word that literally means "mind" and "body" -- where stress or worry make a symptom or condition develop, get worse, or show up in the first place. While common usage means we often think this is saying "it's all in your head,"or that it's not real---it's saying the opposite: it's saying that the mind has such a powerful effect that it can cause real physical pain and suffering and that illnesses and all kinds of conditions can have many different causes. This does not mean what you're experiencing is not real, it means we now understand that stressors and emotions and our minds can connect to a number of health conditions. See here for more (Source: Cleveland Clinic).

Placebo effect - the way a sugar pill or random remedy (used in clinical research trials for a medication, let's say, or a 'fake surgery' in surgical trials, where nothing is implanted or changed) produces symptom relief and improvement as if it were a real pill or real surgically-altering procedure. This means that the person experiences actual change, again, that is not explained by the treatment or pill being studied. We don't fully understand why this is, but we know it's there, and it likely has something to do with a person's expectations of whether something could help them. It has a big impact on research and neuroscience in general. See here for more (Source: NIH 2023)

Nocebo effect - opposite from placebo, where a person's negative expectations play out when given a sugar pill or 'sham' surgery and their symptoms get worse even thought they did not receive any medicine or treatment that would give them side effects. See here for more (Source: NIH 2012).

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cover art by: Sol Vázquez
technical support by: Bobby Richards

Name of Bobby’s find (click for a link to a youtube video): I Wanna Meet Richard Dreyfuss by Gabriel Gundacker

Eye tracking issues (related to ADHD): Typical issues that can impair reading are related to either impulsively (jumping to a wrong line) or attention issues related to thinking about off topic things while reading. Click here for more.

DAVID’S DEFINITIONS:

IMPOSTER SYNDROME is the belief you don't belong/are bad, or that you have to be perfect on the outside along with the fear you will be found out/exposed and people will know you're a mess on the inside. 

OPPOSITIONAL DEFIANT (Disorder, AKA ODD) is a clinical diagnosis that is applied to children marked by intentional acts of disobedience, and conflicts with authority. This diagnosis is much different than a diagnosis of ADHD, although some parts of ADHD can be oppositional in nature, they are not truly rooted in fighting Authority, as much as the rooted in finding agency. For example, a person with ADHD may find themselves fighting an authority figure because they took a candy bar they were eating and want the candy bar back. A person with ODD would fighting the authority figure because they were an authority figure, forgetting about the candy bar.

RESPONSE COST is understanding the consequences of our actions, later down the road.

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cover art by: Sol Vázquez
technical support by: Bobby Richards

The strengths of ADHD — see Dr. Holly White's work at the University of Michigan (Scientific American article)

• Divergent or lateral thinking - probably most commonly called "brainstorming," it's when you generate multiple ideas, applications, solutions, problems, and hop around instead of just focusing on one answer--see this interesting guide from the University of Texas at Austin that helps teachers learn how to ENCOURAGE divergent thinking in their students.  
• How divergent thinking is connected to creativity (study)

As well as addressing self esteem and practicing self-advocacy, work with ADHD means developing:

Metacognition — thinking about your thinking, or why you do what you do. It’s like understanding you’ve been handled incorrect or inapplicable instructions. Knowing why you need an accommodation and why it helps. It involves an awareness as well as an ability to regulate/choose a strategy (eg. changing how you study for a particular test). (source: Wikipedia).
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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

Stimming (aka "Self-Stimulatory Behavior) -originally attributed to autism spectrum disorder (ASD), but also occurs in neurodivergent AND neurotypical or allistic (non-autistic) folks. It means repetitive physical movements, sounds, or actions that someone engages in (aka leg bouncing, finger tapping, hand flapping, twirling hair, humming, repeating words, staring, pacing, doodling, playing with fidgets, chewing gum, smelling or touching things..so many stims!).

Useful for: so many things! For when your senses are overloaded or your understimulated, can help you focus and concentrate, can be a way to learn about or interact with your environment, or to cope with anxiety, stress, excitement, or big feels.

Culture (Source: Oxford Language Dictionary): "the customs, arts, social institutions, and achievements of a particular nation, people, or other social group." OR, "anthropologically, culture is defined as a complex, shared system of learned beliefs, values, behaviors, and symbols that allows a group of people to understand and interact with the world. It's a dynamic, evolving set of practices and ideas that shape a group's identity and way of life" (from sapiens.org)

The notorious NY Times article ("Are we thinking about ADHD all wrong?" by Paul Tough) David and Isabelle are referencing

Chimpanzees eating termites like a lollipop (AKA chimps having a material culture)

Ballast: YES these are compartments designed to be flooded and dispense with water to help balance a ships weight and regulate how buoyant it is in water (how it floats) (see Wikipedia definition of "Ballast Tank" for more) AND superintricate maps and explanations of the...

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Isabelle goes into greater detail about how her neuropsychological assessment was able to show her how she initiates and sustains auditory and visual attention and a little bit on processing speed. But to get more data, she’d need to undergo testing designed for people with traumatic brain injuries or strokes or dementia—what? It's a little strange to realize that the gold standard for learning more about brain functioning as a grown up with ADHD is the same that’s used for brain injuries.  David points out that he uses the word neurodivergent intentionally, in order to point out that there is a diversity of brains, rather than a deficiency or something wrong with you. There are brains that work well in crisis and brains that work well when things are calm. Doesn’t that make sense? Would we say that someone would be “severely apt” at handling chaos? Maybe, you just do what you’re good at? Isabelle goes back to the scale of mild/moderate/severe ADHD—mild reads as boring, moderate—moderation SUCKS—all the words for the scale are poor. David names: if you can’t use the words to apply to “happiness” —it’s a bad scale for humans. Would you say you are ‘mildly or severely happy?” Probably not. So maybe we use different words for humans. People with ADHD are not storms and do not require storm warnings (last time we checked). As part of her neuropsychological evaluation, Isabelle got pages and pages of recommendations for next steps. She got a lot of great data, and also realized that one episode of Something Shiny provides more—so that was affirming and helpful in terms of the work the podcast and its community are doing. Her evaluator left off her autism recommendations, sending them along later, but said, essentially, the only recommendation is to unmask more. That “the only place masking is helpful is in job interviews.” Other than that it’s harmful. It takes energy, it burns people out, it’s hard. Isabelle then goes on to rant about how biased job interviews are, unless you’re giving case examples—but then, David is also super good at job interviews. He checks—did you go to high school or college? Cool, you must be smart. Then, do you want to work with him? Check. Then, would he want to hang out with this person? Yup. And finally, a bunch of curveballs to see how people think on their feet. Because that helps you see how people think and how they communicate about their problem solving, which is good data. Then David names that there are questions he’d love to ask about people that he can’t, beyond the protected class questions about age or location or self-identity—he wishes he could ask if someone is neurodivergent or if someone in their family is neurodivergent, that is an asset to David. He sees the ability to think outside the box in order to do what they do. But he knows he’s not trusted, most hiring people are lying to you, employers are anxious, you’re not going to like them. Every employer is terrified of rejection, it’s so complicated. But he sees neurodiversity and awareness of that as a major plus—if somebody understands that and has self-esteem around it, knows what accommodations they need, they are curious about that. Isabelle has such a bias for self-insight—she wonders, how someone who was so socially off the rhythm of her peers, how was it that she had a lot of high measures for sensory things, but high measures on empathy? Which seems odd, because all of the autistic people Isabelle knows have off the charts empathy, which David concurs. Like the empathy for the crushed ant on the sidewalk. This is so true for Isabelle, she remembers crying for hours about a three-legged hamster she saw in a pet store named “Tiny Tim”—in retrospect, his paw was probably chewed off by his littermates or his mom because hamsters are ROUGH like that—but her mom told her he was okay because he was “fat”—to be fair, she was fatphobic and Polish immigrant mentality an maybe also autistic herself, but she was so distraught. She used to track one ant walking all the way to its hill to make sure it made it because she felt personally responsible for seeing that it was okay. She was so scared she’d look at it later and wonder if she wasn’t autistic—but the stakes were so high, she was scared of not having the community she felt like she was on the cusp of having and understanding. As David puts it: "we will fight for worth and identity." Even more so, Isabelle learns that her own stereotype about autism meaning she is low empathy (even indicated on the 'measures' of autism on the assessments she took) is where she doesn't 'meet criteria' for autism, and how that would keep her up at night. Until her neuropsychiatrist pointed out: it has more to do with a snapshot of where you are and your accommodations. Of course someone who is in their 40's, has been high masking their whole life, and who special interests in humans AKA psychology would be high on empathy measures--she wasn't like this as a kid but it took decades for her to 'get it.' And what a revelation, that autism and empathy are not what we stereotypically assume they might be!

Also, send us photos or links to your fave fidgets! We'll put 'em on our website and share the fidget love. 

DEFINITIONS

Note: “Neuropsych” is shorthand for BOTH a neuropsychological assessment or a neuropsychologist (which is confusing).

Neuropsychologist is "an expert in how brain injuries and conditions affect your behavior, mood and thinking skills. They perform neuropsychological evaluations to assess how your brain and mind are working and suggest treatment plans." (Source: Cleveland Clinic).

A neuropsychological assessment is a series of interviews and tests (computer, written, drawing, solving puzzles, etc. no magnets, radiation, electrodes, or medical procedures involved) — the type of test is based on what is being explored. This battery (or collection) of tests, often done across multiple sessions, help a neuropsychologist determine a psychological diagnosis, treatment plan, and get a sense of how your brain works. Typically recommended by school systems/medical system to assess kids to help figure out what learning differences and accommodations may be helpful, but these assessments are not just for kids! Adults can use them to gain self-understanding, establish a baseline (if dementia or high-risk contact sports play is involved), or even figure out what parts of your brain have been injured or might be affected by brain surgery. Because kids grow and development so much, they are often redone every 2-4 years. Here’s more on neuropsychological assessments from the Cleveland Clinic.

Masking: when neurodivergent individuals pretend to be neurotypical, hide or minimize their stims, and even pretend they have the sam...

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The pro to identifying as having ADHD that David now understands, that he didn't understand years ago, was that it allows you to fit into a culture and a group differently. He walked into a room in his 30’s (at an Eye-to-Eye conference) and found himself fitting in. David needed the label to understand himself. He brings up Dr. Russell Barkley and his research—Isabelle jumps in with a factoid about Barkley’s twin who had ADHD and addiction issues and died in a car accident…which helps give her context for why Barkley is so big on ADHD being a risk factor while driving. David wants to make it clear—it is a tragic story, and he’s not about casting anyone as evil or bad—but Barkeley’s work does do a number on people’s self esteem. They look at his research and think they can’t change and they start to use ADHD as an excuse, not an explanation. It’s important to have compassion for people, he does talk a lot about addiction and car crashes, and we all have sad parts of our past, and its what we do now that matters. When he’s talking to a room for non-ADHDers, they tend to think that people with ADHD are less, rather than more. He likes folk music and David likes rap, and David is not going to pretend to like folk music. Isabelle names that she tries to make sense of something so dehumanizing, like the six hour training she sat through of his that left her in tears, gaining some context for his story gave her a chance to reduce how slimed she felt. Knowing why does decrease suffering. Isabelle has seen a lot of hostility and backlash about AuDHD. Autism is a spectrum—yes, there are non speakers and folks with high support needs. But maybe it was what back in the day was called Asperger’s, a now unused term. David names that Dr. Asperger was a Nazi (sympathizer?) Who created a line around autism (essentially how high-masking someone was) that determined who lived and died. For more on this deep history of Asperger — check out the links below. Isabelle and David agree to have a way longer conversation on the history of neurodivergence. Isabelle talks more about her neuropsych assessment, including sample questions, and fill in the blank type sentences to write. And she was given a questionnaire to give to someone who knows her well—for kids, this might be both to caregivers and teachers, so they can get data about how the kid is functioning in multiple environments. Isabelle then waits, gets a twenty-some page document, and they sit down and cover it all. Isabelle has in the months between first hearing the neuropsychologist state that she meets criteria for autism, confirming her suspicions, she went on a deep dive on all these pieces of information. Isabelle felt the fear of having this diagnosis taken away from her felt so deeply. It was so hard, even just listening to the summary, she wanted to skip to the end (another autistic trait, she is learning, wanting to know the context so she can track what’s being described or knowing where it’s going), and she yes, she has autism, and she burst into tears. Isabelle finally has an answer to the riddle, which a chunk of it related to ADHD, but this is another part of the mystery, like she has been looking in funhouse mirrors her whole life, and now she has an accurate reflection of who she is, like a real, non-distorted mirror. She also has “severe” ADHD. David and Isabelle dig in with how negative this criteria is (which, side note, connects to Barkley’s research). Are we weather systems? Are we severely awesome? Maybe we change it to extremely? Gah. 

Asperger’s and the history of neurodivergence 

Articles and books on 

Dr. Russell Barkley 

Known as a big researcher of ADHD, does really good research, and pushes forward a lot of diagnostic criteria and is in a position of power changing the game for a lot of humans. The caveat that Isabelle and David often make is that: he takes a really doom and gloom, pathologizing perspective (which are scary research-based bits of information).  

Asperger’s 

Autism: you have 40% chance of ADHD, and then 

DEFINITIONS

Note: “Neuropsych” is shorthand for BOTH a neuropsychological assessment or a neuropsychologist (which is confusing).

Neuropsychologist is "an expert in how brain injuries and conditions affect your behavior, mood and thinking skills. They perform neuropsychological evaluations to assess how your brain and mind are working and suggest treatment plans." (Source: Cleveland Clinic).

A neuropsychological assessment is a series of interviews and tests (computer, written, drawing, solving puzzles, etc. no magnets, radiation, electrodes, or medical procedures involved) — the type of test is based on what is being explored. This battery (or collection) of tests, often done across multiple sessions, help a neuropsychologist determine a psychological diagnosis, treatment plan, and get a sense of how your brain works. Typically recommended by school systems/medical system to assess kids to help figure out what learning differences and accommodations may be helpful, but these assessments are not just for kids! Adults can use them to gain self-understanding, establish a baseline (if dementia or high-risk contact sports play is involved), or even figure out what parts of your brain have been injured or might be affected by brain surgery. Because kids grow and development so much, they are often redone every 2-4 years. Here’s more on neuropsychological assessments from the Cleveland Clinic.

Stimming (aka "Self-Stimulatory Behavior) -originally attributed to autism spectrum disorder (ASD), but also occurs in neurodivergent AND neurotypical or allistic (non-autistic) folks. It means repetitive physical movements, sounds, or actions that someone engages in (aka leg bouncing, finger tapping, hand flapping, twirling hair, humming, repeating words, staring, pacing, doodling, playing with fidgets, chewing gum, smelling or touching things..so many stims!).

Useful for: so many things! For when your senses are overloaded or your understimulated, can help you focus and concentrate, can be a way to learn about or interact with your environment, or to cope with anxiety, stress, excitement, or big feels.

Masking: when neurodivergent individuals pretend to be neurotypical, hide or minimize their stims, and even pretend they have the same reasons for doing things (like Isabelle saying "yes, I'm antsy" when she's pacing, when really she feels good and grounded when she paces or goes from room to room).

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Isabelle likes having her new neuropsychological results because someone who is not her got to tell her that she has autism, and David has a different experience. His story was like three different hours of testing done at school, and it spit out that he was Oppositional Defiant, and then only in college did it notice he had differences in spelling and then ADHD. His experience is watching clients have their kids be flagged by a pediatrician or teacher to be tested and then they want to retest themselves. But David is so scared he’d go in now and learn…he doesn’t have ADHD? And that Isabelle actually understands this, because there was a big gap (of several months) between the interview and the tests. Isabelle goes into further details around how she took her test in a little cubicle. And how for kids, it looks more like play, it involves an IQ test and way more details about processing speed, working memory, visual spatial reasoning, reading, symbols, numbers, etc. to help with understanding learning differences and accommodations. So Isabelle had to sit in a cubicle and stare at a computer and click on a mouse for fifteen minutes and it was awful. When he was a kid, David was pulled from class, he had no idea how long it was going to take, there was a person sitting there who was reading from a book and asking him questions. For kids, a level of buy-in becomes very important, it’s hard to get data when you’re a willing participant. For David, his first neuropsych showed how unwilling he was to participate, because it was something he was forced to do because there was “something wrong” and they were looking for what was wrong. This is not don’t like this anymore. It’s important to talk to someone who has been assessed to see how they liked their assessment. You can get a second opinion. There are people who specialize in different areas of neuropsychological testing. And someone who is great at diagnosing ADHD may not be great at diagnosing autism or vice versa. And up until 7 years ago or so, it was impossible to have both autism and ADHD be a primary diagnosis; which connected to insurance company lobbying when the DSM was being updated, ensuring that the rates of certain conditions wouldn’t skyrocket because that would impact insurance coverage and ability to cover/deny and all kinds of political and social isms. The history of diagnoses and what makes the cutoffs incorporates layers of ableism, racism, sexism, homophobia…all kinds of oppression. David names how important it was an opening when you could have a combined AuDHD diagnosis because it started to mean that these diagnoses of deficiency, and all the stereotypes around all autistics being nonspeakers or having high support needs, started to get busted and it became more encompassing, maybe even of strengths? It’s possible for us to be complex beings, being perceived as having ADHD or autism in another context. We are the keepers of the stigma, it was the ‘last thing we wanted to be.’ The other day, Isabelle’s kid went to the doctor, and she always felt the doctor was annoyed with her for being so literal and asking so many detail-oriented questions. Her kid answered the doctor’s question of “does your throat hurt?” By checking in and saying “No.” And she had a lightbulb flash and realized he was taking the doctor literally. So she tells her kid “You and me, we both take things really literally and answer questions extremely honestly. I think the doctor means when she asks if your throat hurts, she means across the last week or so and not necessarily all the time or right now.” And he answers, “YES!” And she saw the doctor warm up to her kid and to her and she felt the difference, and maybe it was the vulnerability or the disclosure. For David's friend, there was a significant amount of distrust in the world, there was a pattern of miscommunication and people asking you things that they don’t mean, when they learned they were autistic, their last instinct was to tell someone. But when they came back from the dentist, they talked about how much the light was bothering them, they gave me some glasses and made it so much better. David can't make us all believe we are safe, we can feel cared for when we tell people what we need and they respond. Statistically, some of the time, your need won't be missed and until recently, Isabelle didn't know she really needed, she would’ve said words like “anxious” and “please give me more time" 

Eye contact being more stimulating than not in general --in short, it connects to nervous system arousal (even brings in the fight/flight system) as well as dopamine loads and social conventions (like reciprocal communication) but in short, this study sums up a bunch of studies across time that show how eye contact is perceived and impacts nervous systems. (Source: Frontiers in Psychology)

Why eye contact may be EXTRA overstimulating for autistic individuals (Source: Scientific Reports, 2017): hint, ...

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Isabelle talks about how being wealthy and affording the performance/clothes of ‘coolness’ growing up was Abercrombie & Fitch back in her high school days--these were expensive clothes that you had to get at the mall and were part of the performance of being 'cool.' And what about how much of coolness, at least for a time, was defined by money, or access to certain expensive clothing brands (like Abercrombie and Fitch) What it means to perform and be high masking, for her. There is a coolness factor, the kid who can pick up what’s cool has an advantage over the kid who doesn’t. Marcus sums it up: are you able to fit in and be embraced by the neurotypical world? And if you can’t, there’s the loner path, the bully path? The empathy he has for the bully path—they were, in his past, the LD/ND kids who were dealing with loneliness and not masking well and it was their way of finding their way to a role in the school community. 60% of people with ADHD say they mask on regular basis and 33% say there is a loneliness to the experience of having ADHD. Then there’s also the pain of being high-masking or being accepted by the neurotypical world, how little practice you have at sitting with who you really are, and finding a stable sense of self. There is a way to be a self to fit in that is not the same as an authentic, self-confident knowing-who-you-are self. The difference between doing it in a healthy way v. doing it in a way to survive. Hard to know what parts of you are okay, and when you’re blending into a neurotypical world, there’s a significant advantage of being able to read the rooms around social cues. Marginalized senses of self are real, having to exist believing you’re less than. Or believing if the mask ever falls, it’s terrifying. Isabelle names that there’s a management around masking and the layers, like she can unmask and say “I have ADHD!” but she doesn’t say, “I have ADHD and I screwed up the finances again so I can’t afford the school bill.” Something for her connects coolness to unaffectedness, not being vulnerable, or not caring what others think. Beyond the unique person who owns where they are, where does coolness come from in our culture? Marcus responds that it's often the people at the top of the social hierarchy, it’s the celebrities, the role models.  Growing up for Marcus, there were the most attractive movie stars who were dyslexia, like Tom Cruise, Orlando Bloom, not Paul Giamatti. When it came to Aspergers (previous name for low support need Autism, check out more in depth on this history below) or Autism (before it was known as Autism Spectrum Disorder or ASD) were superheroes, like RainMan, Temple Grandin, and that was our introduction to the autism community. If you’re dyslexic, the way to make it out is to have hotness or have superhero qualities, and if you don’t fit into either one of those, good luck. This brings up how celebrities are not so far removed anymore, from the days that you got these bland PR stories or tabloids, now you have people sharing their stories and unmasking on social media. Marcus names that authenticity is now a part of social media, and it’s important for celebrities to have a cause, to be speaking to some aspect of this. If we'recynical, it could be a branding strategy, or it could be a shift in culture, because this emphasis on authenticity rather than hiding has been a big change in the last five years. 

What is Abercrombie & Fitch? The following documentary covers it pretty much:

"White Hot: The Rise and Fall of Abercrombie and Fitch" (Netflix documentary)

DEFINITIONS:
Masking: Often used in referenced to autistic folx (Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD)), it also applies to folx with ADHD, OCD, and all kinds of neurodivergence (ND) and learning differences (LD), like dyslexia, dycalculia, dyspraxia, dysgraphia, etc. It’s the idea that you have to wear a neurotypical "mask" to be accepted or to engage in a world made for those that are neurotypical. You 'pretend' as if you brain and nervous system work in ways they don't. It can be (and feel like) a matter of survival. 

From a great article on the topic:

“For many neurodivergent people, masking is a survival tool for engaging in neurotypical societies and organizations. Masking (also called camouflaging) is the artificial performance of social behaviors deemed more “socially acceptable” in a neurotypical culture.”

For more on Marcus Soutra:

www.For the Good Consulting.com

Soutra is a dynamic, award-winning advocate, leader, and trailblazer in the field of neurodiversity (ND). An ND individual himself and former classroom teacher turned social entrepreneur, he co-founded and led Eye to Eye, scaling the organization’s impact on thousands of schools and individuals across the United States. A sought-after speaker, Soutra has delivered compelling talks on stages worldwide, from Harvard to Tokyo, has appeared in dozens of television broadcasts and podcasts,  and has been featured in leading publications including Forbes, The Hill, and Philanthropy Digest. In recognition of his transformative work, he received an honorary doctorate from his alma mater in the spring of 2024.

As the founder of For The Good Consulting, Soutra now supports organizations dedicated to driving systemic change for individuals furthest from opportunity. He resides in Brooklyn, NY, with his wife, an educator and learning specialist, where together they continue to advocate for a more equitable world for all students.

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

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David wonders, given that Marcus travels across the continental United States…what is he seeing as patterns in neurodivergent culture? Marcus describes that he sees the elder millennials having kids who are now being identified as being neurodivergent, and naming, “The trauma ends with me,” and they’re refusing to hand this off to the next generation, and because a generation that grew up with these labels are now turning into parents, school leaders, caregivers, people in charge. David likens this to growing up in an earlier generation where he was taught to toughen up, to take the knocks and handle it. Isabelle relates this to how when you’re living in survival mode, you can’t also be processing the trauma and making meaning of it, you first have to survive—and part of survival mode is to have tunnel vision, to stay tough, to not pause to feel. So it would make sense for a generation that maybe always was in survival mode to try to pass that on to their kids in the form of “toughen up.” She relates to wanting to break this cycle, though, so hard, as a parent. And also—what does David mean by the “boy named Sue” generation? (Answer: it’s a reference to a Johnny Cash song, see below). Marcus describes how this compares to other movements, where something that used to be a diagnosis or label is then taken back as an identity. As he has ADHD, he was hoping this change would happen so much faster, in his small, privileged ND community this change happened so rapidly. It does take these generational shifts and changes to make these things stick. David names that individually, we all have individual struggles that rub up against the system. It felt like school was meant to take parts of us away, it was like an eraser trying to shave parts off. But we are be keepers of that. In school there was no concept of advocating for an accommodation, it was just: do you want to look weird? Leaving class early to go get his meds. How has this changed for kids and adults? It’s hard to generalize because “you know one neurodivergent person, you know one neurodivergent person.” But having an open conversation about something and talk about it and acknowledge and not other it—it does set it up for students to have a teacher they can talk to and ask for what they need (even one adult in that building). The needle has moved from the average high schooler even knowing what dyslexia/ADHD/any ND or LD is. Marcus wasn’t bummed out about dyslexic, but back in high school, it was other people were going to see him being different. He refused to get accommodations for the third time, because if he got accommodations for it, he wouldn’t take the SAT at the same time. Isabelle remembers that as a full body memory, taking the SAT being a production back in the day and even in her own experience being bussed on the short bus into a different school for a Gifted program and how it signaled you were different but also you didn’t want to belong to this select tribe, either.  David names: different is dangerous in some ways, not just for kids but for adults, too. You walk into a room and everyone is wearing a blue “I’m here for a reason” shirt and you might slowly back out of the room and go “I don’t belong.” Trying to be like everyone else is both the salve and the poison—it helps keep us save when we’re masking—what does everyone else is doing? It helps us mask, but David’s first time being a room where people admitted they were neurodivergent, Grady was bouncing a racket ball, the relief and joy you feel when you can join in being more authentically yourself. Isabelle is thinking of the “Cool Bean” book (see below) and how in that story, the beans are ‘cool’ not just because they are performing as cool and have style and whatnot, but also because they are willing to take risks and help those who are being bullied or laughed at, that are able to stand up for others and themselves in a way. This is so different than ‘coolness’ as Isabelle experienced it in her little bubble growing up in suburban Chicago, where coolness felt way more about avoiding being targeting and felt meaner and scarier and more about social power and wielding it (with meanness). Marcus names how his masking helped him in a way; he didn’t know if he could get away with getting into trouble so he would know how to appear wearing a collared shirt and combed hair and befriend his teachers so that he would get on their good side. David describes how with ‘coolness,’ it could be more about performing as if, rather than actually being it—like Marcus wasn’t actually friends with his teachers but he had the appearance of it, and how often we take those appearances of coolness and roll with it. Isabelle wonders—what about the privilege of masking? Like the way people who mask more easily and slot into neurotypical expectations have privileges and also—‘detecting’ what’s cool? And what about how much of coolness, at least for a time, was defined by money, or access to certain expensive clothing brands (like Abercrombie and Fitch) What it means to perform as if you are confident in who you are, 

Johnny Cash’s “Boy Named Sue” (live at San Quentin, 1969)

Cool Beans book (by Jory John) read aloud (by Harper Kids)

Smart Cookie (also by Jory John) read aloud (by Magical Little Minds) about learning differences/neurospicyness according to Isabelle

More on Marcus Soutra:
www.For the Good Consulting.com

Soutra is a dynamic, award-winning advocate, leader, and trailblazer in the field of neurodiversity (ND). An ND individual himself and former classroom teacher turned social entrepreneur, he co-founded and led Eye to Eye, scaling the organization’s impact on thousands of schools and individuals across the United States. A sought-after speaker, Soutra has delivered compelling talks on stages worldwide, from Harvard to Tokyo, has appeared in dozens of television broadcasts and podcasts,  and has been featured in leading publications including Forbes, The Hill, and Philanthropy Digest. In recognition of his transformative work, he received an honorary doctorate from his alma mater in the spring of 2024.

As the founder of For The Good Consulting, Soutra now supports organizations dedicated to driving systemic change for individuals furthest from opportunity. He resides in Brooklyn, NY, with his wife, an educator and learning specialist, where together they continue to advocate for a more equitable world for all students.

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

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Isabelle and Aaron wonder: what’s with this PDA business (persistent drive for autonomy/persistent demand avoidance)? David explains: It’s hard for us to connect a learned moment with an experience, it’s hard for us to take a moment we're learning now and take it into the future, and we're distractable. If we're in a place with any shame, guilt, or anxiety, distraction becomes highly reinforcing. We are highly reinforced by not paying attention to what we want to pay attention to it. We're not seeing the long term consequence, we don’t understand what we're doing to our future by not doing it in this moment--delay of gratification and response cost. Like, what did you do today? “I watched three seasons of Scrubs and ate a buffet of Indian food.” We can't claim any wins at the end of the day, but in the moment it felt so nice, it was a distraction. Neurologically we don't get a success, norepinephrine —you feel anxious, and it leads into their evening, and for kids and adults, if you're really anxious about the next day, you don't want to go to sleep. “The longer I'm up today, the longer today is! I don't have to face tomorrow if I haven't gone to bed yet.” David has been thinking about this with his friend and colleague Noah, based on this book, Dopamine Nation. If we’re not accommodated or assisted by something during a transition, and then you have nothing else to do, you are looking down a long dark hole of no dopamine—that’s why the evening can look so hard. The road to sleep to extra awful, you have to sit still, you have to tolerate frustration and still yourself enough to go to sleep. David names: we are considered overtired if it takes less than 15 minutes to fall alseep—most ADHD folks, as an accommodation to not sit in the discomfort of staying still with no dopamine, don’t hit the bed until they are beyond exhausted and just crash. Isabelle and Aaron disbelieve this. Isabelle does not compute that this is how people live, that people just lay there for 8, 10, 15 minutes and slowly go to sleep, this has never happened to her. Aaron gets anxious that he won't fall asleep in 5 minutes and then can't stand the guided meditation.  David will be snoring watching tv on the couch with his partner but doesn’t confirm he is “tired." with Delayed sleep phase onset, this is a thing we struggle with. Accommodations for sleep? Did you use enough physical energy during the day? You can't go into a preferred activity before bed—you have to find weird shows or things that are interesting but not so interesting it will keep you awake. What is a preferred activity? If you're super into a video game, for example—if you can't sleep, don't play the video game. The things that you prefer and wake you up, engage your hyperfocus. What's the boring video game that’s like paint by numbers? Isabelle will read nonfiction when she’s not feeling very tired, but if she reads compelling fiction she will stay awake. Because, who wants to sit in boredom? These are tips that are not sleep hygiene or what you’d expect. So many tactics to help a kid fall asleep are there to help them get bored enough to stay still and not reach for a preferred activity. The most important task in the brain's development is boredom: One of the most important things is to experience boredom. It's really important and yet we run from it all the time. A neurotypicaly person needs to encounter a certain amount of boredom to get creative. But with ADHD, we are bored a 1000's of times more often in a day than a neurotypical does in a day, and the feeling of being bored is so caustic and our brain is so creative and thinking of fun things all the time. But because we encounter so many micromoments of boredom, it makes it really hard to tolerate the 10 or 15 minutes to fall asleep. Or try something on in the store. The moment of a transition that's boredom and hurts. When do we want to sit with it, when do you want to avoid it? David tries to stop listening to a D&D podcast he wants to, he's trying to train himself to be awake still and do it at a time and then fall asleep, instead of falling asleep when he crashes. AND there are literal sleep disturbances. People with ADHD have a much higher likelihood of getting a CPAP machine and sleep apnea, cause our physical necks are bigger (what?!). We have to think of social conventions made to busy people as problematic: are you folding your underwear because you're worried about them wrinkling? So many clothes are not wrinkling! Clean your clothes, but don't think you're failing at life if you're not folding laundry. Aaron requests more on sleep, and refers to an older episode by name "I'm not tired, you're tired!” David wonders: what would a Aaron tell his younger self if he had a 20 second time machine. He’d like to tell himself: “be brave, it's hard, it gets better. And look into ADHD earlier." The whole sequence of anxiety he’s had to deal with has been altered by knowing about ADHD and being medicated. It's not just the medicine, it's finally having a reason for how his interior life is the way he is. If there’s no reason, it's just your fault—why is Aaron a slob in his private places? It's not a character defect. But some people with ADHD are clean and tidy! Isabelle is one of these people—she just got a label maker and has been labeling her cabinets and pantry with things but then putting exclamation points at the end, so it says things like “BEANS!” “PASTA!” Referring back to Ep097, David names that Isabelle is a promoter: of pantry staples. But for Isabelle, she doesn't mind if others are making messes, she just needs things to be in order because otherwise they will move on her, it's a way to accommodate her working memory and find things again later. There isn't a right way to fit into this culture,. There's parts of ADHD culture—and theory of group dynamics, that says that people within a group have more things different between each other than they do with those outside of the group: ADHD is no different. Like medically: with depression, you can sleep not at all, or sleep a lot: these are opposite things and yet they all fall under the same diagnosis. Some things we can all relate to, like the way that we are hurt by our own integrity (not doing what we wanted or said we would do), our celebration and glee at remembering to do or finally doing the boring thing! Recognizing you have ADHD is a bit like parts of you being seen before, and suddenly all these associated pains --you don't know why you can't do what you want to do, and it has be to you. Aaron ties that back to his calvinist upbringing: “I wanted to do this, why did I forget?" It's the internal monologue we have to chance. There are parts of us that in a wheelchair and we keep coming at stairs. Isabelle references “I wanna to be a man in motion? All I need is this pair of wheels. Take me where the eagle's fly: St. Elmo's Fire."  ...

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David describes how borrowing from LeDerick Horne and his brilliant theory around leadership, that folks in leadership can have a number of qualities, including being promoters. Folks with ADHD can be natural promoters, and being a promoter is actually a form of leading others. With the caveat that we must be into what we promote. And how excited we are about people and how we talk people up. David names that perhaps this has something to do with how we are starving (for dopamine) and intimacy and connection and relatedness can help us fill that void, we reach for the connection and get excited. Isabelle wonders if this relates to an autism(ASD)-style special interest, how she perpetually is excited and has a working principle that everyone could find common ground if we just found a shared hobby or special interest. David likes to tell people on airplanes that he's a car salesman so he can talk and listen to his heart’s content but he doesn’t have to focus on what he does. Isabelle names that even though David is not very savvy about cars, he could sell a car because he's such a natural salesperson. Isabelle names that anxiety around overselling things, she might encourage people to try new things, take new risks, explore and play—but her working memory is so poor that she doesn't know if she oversold, she has to refer to notes or something as reference. David loved serving as fun because there was a high degree of risk and failing so it helped me remember things. David names that we are not starving puppies with watery eyes, but we are highly susceptible to be reinforced, so when we see someone else’s tail wagging, it shoots up our levels of dopamine, we are highly reinforced. The establishing operation—social connection and social mastery is water for us, like the water-deprived rats being reinforced in Skinner boxes. The environment makes Isabelle’s puppy quality feel safe or good or not; and can lead to her feeling starved of that connection and reinforcement. The feeling when you have no one wagging their tail back at you—how many mistakes we do make, how many social gaffs and miscues, and big ones. It's almost like we find ourselves so marginalized, its like finding a prison gang when we find people who get us. What does it do to your sense of self when you can't do what you want with your morning—how that deflates your sense of self. Isabelle feels like she shares a bond with the other parents and caregivers that are always running late—it flares up imposter syndrome and “if you only saw me five minutes ago." David reframes this as "if only you saw what it took me to get here and I made it!" Aaron is a master of social engineering, even though he's almost always good at it and social interaction, he remains scared the whole time. The anxiety hits because if it doesn't work out, he takes the hits hard: he can take a lot of them, but they hit hard. David shares one of his hits—he was spending a lot of money for grad school, wanting to read all the books for all his classes, he was going to learn it all...but he didn't do any of the readings for one of his classes. The class was talking about this person out loud, “Ed Nafoah” — he was like "what is this Nafoah guy talking about ?” and everyone in class is like “Edna? Her name is Edna Foa.” It took five to ten minutes for David to feel the cabin pressure returning and the lights to come up and to return to his body. Aaron points out that his impulsivity could carry him through it—David had a ballast and in grad school and they were talking about different psychosocial backgrounds, step or two based on privilege. The professor holds up a dollar and says "the first person to…can have this dollar?” He’s never seen someone authorized like that. Aaron sings the theme song from “The Greatest American Hero” which we all know, and the superhero suit is David’s impulsivity. 

Who is Edna Foa?

Greatest American Hero trailer (he is LITERALLY "walking on air")

Story behind St. Elmo’s Fire theme song, "Man in Motion" 

• here's the music video and the song 
• A quick synopsis of the backstory behind the song (Source: Wikipedia)
• And an interview with the songwriter/singer, John Parr, discussing how he came up with the idea and how he snuck it in to be the theme song for this 1980’s Brat Pack Extravaganza. 

For more about our guest:
Aaron Michael Ullrey (he/him)
Writing and Editing Specialist, Editor in Chief
Research Associate, Transcendence and Transformation
Center for the Study of World Religion (CSWR) at Harvard Divinity School

Instructor of Religious Studies

The University of Houston

Instructor of Sanskrit Language

University of Naropa 

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

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David and Isabelle welcome Aaron, a longtime friend of David’s brother, who was recently diagnosed with ADHD as an adult. In thinking about ADHD, he thinks about this show from the 1970’s, “Greatest American Hero,” where this teacher is given a superpower suit by some aliens, who also give him a manual for the suit, and he loses it on the first day, so he goes around saving people but also is seeking this manual and he always gives it up to save someone. He resonated with this character so much, and for Aaron, medication made a huge difference—he is able to wake up and do the thing and then he is able to do. He’s been medicated for anxiety and depression his whole life and taking medication for ADHD doesn’t make those go away, but it helps him be the person he always wanted to be. Isabelle so resonates with the suit metaphor and how she and Bobby attempted to make their home more ADHD friendly (see “Keeping House While Drowning” and all the ADHD friendly home tips below!) And she forgot her medication and instead of spiraling into anxiety, when she realized why she stalled out all day, she was able to recognize it was “oh, I was missing my ingredient.”  David points out that it’s not just medication, because medication is not for everyone, it can be so many things, once we find out what the ingredient is—working out in the morning, the coffee routine, whatever it might be--when you all of a sudden miss it, you can pinpoint it and recover. Even more so, Aaron describes how it is a conscious habit, as a child of the 80’s, he is not about the idea of 'working on his self-esteem,’ but realizes through therapy and his conversations with David that it keeps coming up for a reason, there are wounds there that do shift when you are able to do some of the things you previously struggled with. David can recognize those nasty voices in our heads, the angry voice as a teenager to get himself to do things. Based on his arbitrary math, while it takes 6 weeks to build a neurological bridge, it takes 6 years to build a habit. He chose to make excitement that it will be over the habit over the anger over having to do it. Whether it’s medication or nervousness or anxiety, David recognizes that something has to stimulate him so he has to choose his path and practice it. Aaron remembers his psychologist friend Dave 20 years ago sharing the 3 paths to happiness (he was studying at the time)—the first is excitement, the second is contempt (at least temporarily), and the third is intimacy. Aaron is excitable and comes from a contemptuous family and wants to focus on intimacy. This makes Isabelle make awkward spiders with her hands, the idea of gossiping and spreading shame makes you feel reassured and safe but also brings with it a threat and temporary condition; for Isabelle, intimacy means playfulness, curiosity, a willingness to see what happens next, and as David defines it: a shared vulnerability. Aaron ordered up BRAIN STUFF, and sadly David has no links, so Isabelle tries to fill it by talking about studies that connect to how we associate the negative talk about someone with the gossiper, not the subject of the gossip. David names that he does think ADHD is a superpower with a missing manual, and the tricky part is let’s say we’re talking unbridled enthusiasm: it’s a superpower and contagious and also has an effect on the recipient. David names being okay with someone not wanting to be the recipient at this current moment. 

THE THINGS WE MENTIONED:

• Greatest American Hero Opening Credits (Worth it to finally see where this song comes from and for the flying haphazardly imagery)
• How to Keep House While Drowning by KC Davis
• So You’ve Been Publicly Shamed by Jon Ronson
• "Punishing or praising gossipers: How people interpret the motives behind negative gossip shapes its consequences" (source: Social and Personality Psychology Compass)

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

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Once upon a time, David sold hot dogs at Wrigley Field, yelling out “here’s your hot dogs!” To do that, he talked differently, throwing the accent in so thick. This was during the McGuire/Sosa run streak, and he would say “Sammy’s going to hit a home run to you in the 7th” and he had a 50% chance of being right and he made it a great time for those kids. This makes Isabelle think of Tricia Hersey, the Nap Minister, who has done all this work on systemic racism and the Black American experience, and rest as resistance or a form of activism. She also is talking about lot about trickster energy. Isabelle thinks about this in the form of ableism, how she talks and writes about trickster energy, and making magic in something that feels subversive and is part of the time as well as not a part of the time. Like David is performing the role of the hot dog vendor, but then because he predicts the ‘future’ to the kid, he adds a twist to it and he becomes a full human, like more than a role. Isabelle’s shortcuts often fall around domestic labor. David likes how it elevates the hot dog vendor to more than an NPC—after the game, if he predicted it was right, reclaims that he was actually a main character. But also it was greater than what David was doing. Isabelle notices that this lines up with a neurodivergent strength with ADHD, the going on tangents, the divergent tangents. Isabelle names that recently things have been really tough personally and professionally, and yet she has this relentless optimism; Isabelle can’t help but bring in the playful energy. Is her optimism really about ADHD? David names that optimism is not about accuracy, it has to do with process. Optimism is: ‘it’s not a loss until it is,” and you can be miserable for 3 weeks leading up to something or miserable for the one moment you feel the loss. But also, David warns, optimism can be dangerous when it comes to expectations. If you expect a piece of (astronaut) ice cream when you get home every day, it is a set up when you get upset you didn’t get the astronaut ice cream. Optimism is radically accepting that we haven’t lost until we have. In one hour we can feel sad, but right now, we can still win. For David it’s how he can sit with his nervous system, it’s changing the meaning of “in process.” Isabelle really likes this, as she is relentlessly optimistic. If she is more willing to take risks, if she doesn’t have a big response cost, she doesn’t have a great estimation of how hard or long something is going to be, a poor working memory, and it would track that overall she would get smacked in the face by a 2 x 4 and then wake up the next day and forget it ever happened. She doesn’t remember the fails until she's failing again, and anything is possible until it isn’t, or she remembers the fails but this time, it could be different. And, is part of that really a choice she’s making or is it just a shortcut, a mental shortcut—you could call it optimism that she always leaves the house not accounting for traffic because she believes in parking magic. It would be way harder for her to keep all the possibilities in mind. David asks: are you forgetting to account for traffic? That’s executive functioning stuff. Or are you optimistic about there being no traffic? If you’re leaving late thinking you’re going to get a good parking spot, the memory deficit reinforces this perspective. But isn’t it easier to live with miracles and magic and not borrowing trouble? You’re not ruining your present moment by fretting about something that hasn’t happened yet. But if Isabelle could have accounted for her executive functioning maybe she could’ve avoided some thing. When we are struggling to pull out optimism in an area, we’re looking at areas of self-esteem. It’s really hard to be optimistic if you don’t have a sense of mastery in who you are and what you’re doing. You have to have a sense that you are enough or that you matter, you have to have some power or some say in a world. Survival mode, by necessity removes optimism, makes you pessimistic. When you’ve survived trauma, which is anything that overwhelms your sense of hope, what devalued or dehumanized you or left you feeling out of control, and it was something that Isabelle was internalizing something was the worst. Back in the day, in older versions of the DSM, included in PTSD was the idea of a ‘foreshortened future,” there’s not way she could survive or make it through another developmental state. When you’re in survival mode, you think you’re getting all the important data, black and white, like an old news reel, you think you’re getting all the information, but you’re getting very little data, which can be both helpful and hurtful. Does optimism indicate the opposite of the trauma response? Is it an indicator you're not in the survival mode? But David names: optimism is not a better, pessimism is not a worse—both are accommodations and have their uses. Maybe you’re more vulnerable in process, and less vulnerable at the end, so being optimistic is an adaptation for you. For someone else who is more vulnerable at the end and less vulnerable in process, being pessimistic would be an adaptation. We surrender parts of ourselves when we try to be somebody else, and David is a proponent of humanism, that humans as a whole make sense, and we’re doing our best. He’s not interested in optimism being used to invalidate pessimism or pessimism being used to invalidate optimism. 

NPC - Non-Playable or Non-Player Character: a term from gaming that refers to characters that cannot be played by the person playing the game. (Source: wikipedia).

Nap Minister, Tricia Hersey and her book, Rest is Resistance

Trickster Archetype: (from Wikipedia): "a character in a story who exhibits a great degree of intellect or secret knowledge and uses it to play tricks or otherwise disobey normal rules and defy conventional behavior." Examples Isabelle mentioned include: Loki (norse mythology and the Marvel Universe), Anansi (Ashanti folklore)

ADHD's links to optimism:

• The Positive Aspects of Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder: A Qualitative Investigation of Successful Adults with ADHD (Source: ADHD Springer Journal)
• Incautiously Optimistic: Positively Valenced Cognitive Avoidance in Adult ADHD (Source: NIH/Cogn. Beh. Pract.)
• Positive Illusory Bias (PIB) related to ADHD in kids and parents (source: University of British Columbia)

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Isabelle describes how her and Bobby would take time away just the two of them, and realized how time would move so differently, especially if they just let themselves hang out and not put extra pressure on the time off. David names that we focus so much on intensity of experiences (for Isabelle’s family, the most intense all-inclusive Disney trip EVER!) versus frequency, when actually, you need more frequent interactions in order to have a template for how to be with each other. So maybe we do more time off or together time—more often, and lower the bar for what we have to do in that time? Isabelle struggles with this, however, in how she tackles family game nights, as family dinner might be something of a challenge for folks (let’s not assume all families are functional and you want to spend time with each other, either). She goes to great lengths to set it up, get the snacks, the music, the setting…and she always wants to make it 2% better, but it often backfires or doesn’t match up to any expectations. This brings her to her new hyper fixation, on perfectionism (see book she names, below). She describes how there’s a type of perfectionist that seeks to have every part of a process go well, and if one part goes wrong, they throw it all away. This relates for her to being so in the present moment and struggling with what happened just before or just after, so she wants to nail each part of a get together. David does not relate to this, it brings up the fact he knows nothing can be perfect and in fact, he felt so ‘not enough’ for much of his life, that he does not carry this. Isabelle describes how there’s this type of perfectionism where you work really hard but you try to appear effortless (effortlessly styled, cool, fit, etc.) and David names how he wants to unlock peak experiences with minimal effort. Isabelle and David get into a debate about whether or not David might be a type of perfectionist, if you think of perfectionism as ambitions or goals or striving toward and ideal, and Isabelle’s own journey exploring if she has autism, makes her think that maybe this is how she uses scripts in social settings, like she knows what her role is and what is expected of her and she wants to do it well. David names that if he puts great effort into it, then it doesn’t count, except when he’s making “D’s Nuts,” a holiday spiced nut roasted sugared nut blend that blows minds in little mason jars every year. Isabelle finally gets what David means; he’s going for peak efficiency, like he puts in no effort, and it’s a HUGE win for the person. With D’s nuts, it’s extremely labor intensive and he’s proud of it. Isabelle likes to give people shortcuts, like discount codes and bargains and feels so seen when David names he has benefited from her use of this many a time. 

The Perfectionist’s Guide to Losing Control by Katherine Morgan Schafler

Types of perfectionists (per the book above, taken from Medium summary article)

• Classic perfectionist — They attempt to control essentially everything. This is the type we’re all thinking of. They like structure and consistency. They tend to hold themselves to extremely high standards and are overachievers.
• Parisian perfectionist — This type wants to be perfectly liked by everyone in an effortless way. They have a sense of ideal connection and tend to be people pleasing to bridge that gap.
• Procrastinating perfectionist — These folks want the conditions to be ideal before they get started on a project. They have an ideal notion of how something might go, and are afraid of having it ruined with the reality of actually getting started.
• Messy perfectionist — This doesn’t mean physically messy. What it means is that these folks have a hard time following through once a project has gotten underway. They believe that they can focus on multiple things without having to give anything up, but frequently don’t finish what they started and have multiple projects in various states of completion at any given time.
• Intense perfectionist — These people can be extremely demanding of others. Think the boss that is exacting and keeps you at the office late. They have an ideal outcome or vision and are willing to be extremely unlikable in order to bring it to fruition.

David makes “D’s nuts.” For those not familiar with Chicago accents, here’s an old SNL sketch that makes big use of this.

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

What is Voltron? I mean, the logo alone… 

Quick visual searches (not endorsing any particular brand, just for reference):
Giant Gummy Bear
Giant Toblerone  

DAVID’S DEFINITIONS 

Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria (RSD), where you interpret feedback or questions or redirections as being very harsh and personal, and then really take it to heart—even if that’s not really what is being communicated to you. Can be present a lot with folx with ADHD.

Use case: Does a thing do something other than just sit there? There is a case for how you’d use it.

Thoughts on gift giving

• Dopamine releases around the potential of awesomeness, not the actual awesomeness. 
• Make it a win/lose, and set yourself up for a win, and those giving you gifts for a win: pick something you 
• Harness your impulsivity: follow your first instinct. Be outrageous.
• Don’t expect doubt to go away: there’s a chaotic variable in giving in a gift, a novel way the person could react.
• Think about things that people maybe would never buy for themselves but they would not reject (run the scenario, pretend you’re mad at the gift you just gave)—for example, two 15 lb. Bags of gummy bears. It’d be silly for someone to reject it and it’d make a funny story if they do.
• Advice for kids: create a day to go to the store with the kid so they can pick out what they impulsively want that day. Give them the power to choose. Predetermine budget or safety issues, but otherwise, no micromanaging. Even with buyer’s remorse, there’s a lesson and it’s okay. 

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

SNL Fake Macy’s commercial for children’s uncomfortable clothing

DAVID'S DEFINITIONS

TASK V. EMOTIONALITY

• Task: what you’re trying to do - the ‘work’ of a group or a person. 
  • for example: I am finishing my project this weekend.
• Emotionality: what you do to prepare to do a task - beliefs/fears/assumptions about what you’re doing
  • for example: I’m doing it wrong/right, I always procrastinate, big fear you’ll never get it done, dream that someone will come and save you from having to do it, etc. 

Traveling survival tips

• Prep your go-bag, tool kit (and consider several plans, not just one, like the ipad, because batteries die)
• Kids will fall apart. They will fall apart when they travel. Be there when they do. What do you need to do to be there for them? Go at your pace. Pick up a treat. Do things to make it easier on you. 
• Get ready to leave the night before. Have things packed. 
• Plan to have a day off once you return. The last day of vacation will always suck, but you can make your return to your day to day so much better.
• Plan on your own breakdown. You’re a good parent/partner and you can reach a limit. It’s the rule, not the exception with travel.

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Isabelle wonders if her experience would have been different if her food sensitivities, then cast as being ‘too picky,’ ‘too sensitive’, had been more the norm in her family friend group growing up. She was the odd one out and that left room for so much judgment and commentary. Meanwhile, she sees her partner Bobby’s family and notes that pretty much everyone has food sensitivities, their yucks and yums, so they accept it and roll with it and stock up on what people like and seem to not be phased by it at all. David relates this to his experience being vegetarian for years and how he would feel when people would immediately show him the vegetarian dish on the menu—but he knows now that this was them looking out for him, verifying that this was a place he could eat. He couldn’t hear it then, but as he got older, he would just say “thank you.” The difference when you’re trying to advocate for your kid as a parent v. Others outside of that. David has his soft response—“if there’s ever a night to eat what you like, it’s with family” and his hot response is “should I follow you and talk about what you eat?” Isabelle noticed that she could change the texture of vegetables and thus reinvent her ability to eat vegetables, including the bitter ones she couldn’t handle for so long. There was so much labor put into the food of her Polish Christmas eve celebrations growing up, like pierogi, and there’s this sense of wanting to pass on food pushing and abundance and scarcity. David’s mouth is watering about pocket foods—pierogi, samosas, tamales—delicious. Which links up Isabelle’s fun fact about fried chicken—that frying preserves the food! And then, isn’t it technically a pocket food, too? But, as David points out—the bone! But, Isabelle counters, what about tenders? So is a chicken tender a pocket food with no other filling but chicken? And also foods on sticks. Isabelle likes the risk involved and also chewing on the stick. David doesn’t understand how to eat the food off the stick, but there’s a big difference between impulsive behavior and well thought out behavior. David and Isabelle are now very hungry. Isabelle asks if traditions really aren’t about transmitting memories, and if so, kids won’t remember the meal you served, but they will remember the feeling that someone stood up for them and their needs?  David reframes this: are you trying to win an argument (about food) or win a feeling? Are you aiming for togetherness and connection—it’s not the day to argue about the food, or the screen, or the phone—give yourself that day. This brings Isabelle to asking David about jello with chunks in it, if he likes that kind of texture, and he doesn’t, he likes hard jello. Isabelle is confused by what he means and describes aspic served for Polish Easter, and furthermore, one of the most neurodivergent ways of relating to food, which can include eating copious amounts of the things we love repeatedly. For her, on another holiday with another food profile, she ate 27 eggs. In one day. Gave herself hives from the eggs. And that’s not including the mayonnaise. David meant hard jello like jello made with apple juice. Also as a former bartender, David cautions everyone about drinking and driving around Thanksgiving, a holiday notorious for stress and overindulging, and also about the dangers of alcohol soaked foods like jello shots. And he is grateful to Isabelle and to Team Shiny (we love you, Team Shiny!) For all we have made together, for all the people who now know more about ADHD or have new diagnoses: we’re sad you had to get a diagnosis and happy you had to get a diagnosis? We’re here for all of it. Have a great holiday!

The backstory behind Nashville hot chicken

Frying as a way to preserve food - "Since fried chicken traveled well in hot weather before refrigeration was commonplace and industry growth reduced its cost, it gained further favor across the South." (Source: Wikipedia)

Fascinating rabbithole of a site that makes industrial fryers -- most processed foods are fried!

Recipe for ‘hard jello’ aka Jell-o jigglers (which sadly does not mention apple juice, but does specify the water to gelatin ratio)

And bonus: how to make gelatin out of any fruit juice (like apple juice)

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

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David and Isabelle stare down the fast moving train of holidays and expectations that is barreling toward us right now. As we approach Thanksgiving we have a bunch of "shoulds" coming at us--we should be like everyone else and even though we have sensory issues with cars, and sounds, and people, and all that stuff. Everything from sitting still from being held hostage on a plane or in the car, or being stuck in a service or sit at a table, or eating - the sound, the food, the overstimulation, while simultaneously coupled with frustration and your routine being destroyed, and all of this at the same time. This explains why Isabelle has a lurching sense of dread approaching this time of year. The holiday dread is real. David and Isabelle have covered other aspects of holidays, like speaking with family, and the glories and pains of holiday travel, and here they are focusing on food and sensory sensitivities. Isabelle remembers how growing up she was known as a picky eater but actually there were a lot of sensory sensitivities going on. She had memories of celebrating “wigilia” (Polish Christmas Eve celebration) and sitting at a much larger table, with much more eyes on her, and as someone who only ate pretty much chicken and white rice and potatoes, she was facing down a traditional non-meat meal of 12 mostly fish-based dishes (such as pickled herring). You fast before this evening meal, and then you commence the eating. She would be lightheaded and nauseous because she’d be so hungry and would fill up on dinner rolls with butter, everyone is judging and commenting, then she lives on the high of opening presents, and then they’d go to midnight mass at midnight, and then they’d light candles and means the oxygen is rapidly leaving the area in an enclosed place and so she’d either pass out and throw up. Everyone can look back in time and find the holiday memories of “we can’t believe we did that on purpose.” We don’t make time any other time of year to have these rituals, and see each other, and it's really about connections, yet we get caught up in following these rules that don’t always work. Isabelle thinks about how for years she carried the shame around this being her fault, she’s the picky eater that would end up passing out or throwing up, but then thinks about how easy it would’ve been to provide some kind of option for her. That there are traditions and ways of keeping the meaning behind the traditions, but also making even small accommodations that can make all the difference to us. How we can always make new traditions. There’s a really hard part with food: there are people that work really hard for hours in the kitchen and they want you to try and see what you like about it and not like about it—how can we try certain things that work for us, and how can we bring our own food—like here’s my tub of Mac and cheese, there has to be a middle path. The way to be a gracious guest and host, and how as neurodivergent folks we can prefer to host because it gives us structure, she can stay on her feet, it helps her mask less. What is this about ADHD and food sensitivities? There’s a lot around taste aversion, what happens when we associate a food item with a thought in our head—like “eww, this tastes like sand” and we don’t eat sand…or boogers. To make the eating experience a lot more about the flavors they’re experiencing rather than the thought in the brain. Is it salty? Sweet? Savory? Textures? David is a texture person, there is a fine line between “this is edible” and “this makes me gag”—like bananas, one day to the next changes. Isabelle and David firmly agree on bananas being this type of thing, and Isabelle does not do overripe bananas, you make it a cooking liquid and you put it in banana bread. David also likes drinkable yogurt and he doesn’t mind it because he’s drinking it. If he’s moving his mouth hole up and down there needs to be something there to fight my mouth.” And crunching is stimulating and stress reducing. Whether we’re chewing ice or almost-cutting-the-top-of-your-mouth bread crust. Is it the act of chewing that’s stress reducing, or something crunchy is stress reducing? Isabelle notices chewy things, like gum, gummy chews, and chip crunch, or a cold crunch, she does not like it—there are special ice cubes that collapse in your mouth that shrink in your mouth. Tiny ball ices at Sonic or certain places have that. David knows chewing gum is a stimulation, and David is hazarding guesses with the crunching thing (like it’s objectively dominating something in your mouth, or you’re making progress, or it’s the sound itself)—there are a lot of parts of that that is soothing. If it’s paired with dopamine, your chocolate chip cookie crunch is paired with delight and celery crunch is a HORROR to Isabelle. David’s favorite crunch is an apple-pear crunch, or a jicama crunch. What is an apple-pear? What is it exactly? This links us to grapples (apples that taste like grapes), and cotton-candy grapes (it’s too much) and champagne grapes and boba. Isabelle loves it, and David describes how he never got boba, he just thought they were fun to launch and make stick to the things, and then years later, it was cold, and he got the boba and then he had a moment when all of a sudden, he chewed it up and was like boba. “Boba, you’re delicious!” And now he’s a full boba fan. There was a challenge to himself to experience it again. Isabelle wants to go on 800 food related tangents and realizes it might be a food related special interest. The sound of the crunch is a tiny sonic boom in your mouth. And David leans on a couch with his hand on his chin and his finger got in and he accidentally came down on his finger absentmindedly, and you can’t even pretend to bite yourself, oh my goodness, it is so painful and powerful. Every time Isabelle bites her tongue or cheek it feels like she severs her tongue. But also, why did David put his finger in his mouth accidentally? And if he put his finger in his mouth and chew it. Isabelle loved chewing pen cap (old school pic pen caps), and she’d chew on everything. She’d also chew on lollipop sticks, she chews on the cupcake wrapper, she doesn’t ingest these things and doesn’t like chewing, but she loves chewing paper and the pen cap, and it got vertical in her mouth and it sliced a line in the center of the tongue, and she still has a divet. Every single person who is listening has done something like that, or has eaten too many sour patch kids, or has eaten hot pizza too fast and burned their mouth open. This connects to masking and needing stimulation, and a little bit of clumsiness, oral gratification, and it’s important. Switching and making new fantasies for the holidays: if you have a picky eater, why don’t you make that with them and bring that with them? Don’t let the family shame you and make you thing you’re doing anything wrong. Take care of your family. Including yourself. So many of us will give kids the room to offer them to...

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Isabelle (speaking of a hard moment trying to get herself and her kids out the door when they're already running so late and then stopping, covering her eyes and ears, and just sitting on the couch)-- thought this "busy-ness" was a personality trait, moving on to the next, to the next, to the next—to always be busy, harried, running behind. And you can’t expect the environment to stop when things feel like too much. Pandemic was not a blessing in disguise (that’s BS), and Isabelle’s experience was that on top of the systemic and personal trauma and wanting to chew her own arm off, it was the first time the world did stop to a degree—it took a lot of demands and choices off the table for her. How often when she is burned out and crispy does she want the world to stop, for things to slow down, to quiet down on a sensory level.  And when the world stopped, that wasn’t the answer either, she actually found herself doing more—it’s a lot to realize that the world won’t stop for you and even when it does, it doesn’t address the overwhelm problem. David names that a lot of social expectations changed—doing laundry, doing hygiene. Finding out which things were effective and which weren’t was a lot then. In couples, there’s a big difference between a harsh versus a soft startup, taken from the work of the Gottmans (see links below). The harsh versus soft start up through transitions—are you giving yourself a harsh or a soft start up to a task? What do you need to transition to a particular activity—do you want to get there late, stressed, sweaty? Or do you want to get there and be bored for a bit, because you're about to read to kids in a library and need to come in with less energy? When Isabelle sits and asks for help, she interrupts and resets a harsh start up to a soft start up. She is doing for herself what she wishes another person would do. Sits her down, has her take a moment, helps take away the expectations and demands. Bobby can do that sometimes, but also she can’t expect someone to do that everyday. And it helps her get reps at switching from a soft to a harsh transition. She didn’t think she had a gear shift; she was on and off. It’s existential, you have to reset your own expectations and what it means to stop. Isabelle has to unmask, and reveal how vulnerable she is and ask for what she needs, she has to face trauma. A client of hers recently invented (she thinks?) This term “ADHD trauma.” Being neurodivergent in a neurotypical world that’s constructed to benefit and aid neurotypical ways of being generates trauma by virtue of the not having the right manual. And David calls this ADHD culture. We have different problems with friend groups or making purchases or being an imposter, the thing that makes this podcast fun to listen to. Culture is defined by how we dance with trauma. Every kind of culture—race, class, etc.—sets the standard of how you interact with the world. The feeling of going into a class and forgetting you had a test; all those empty water bottles under the seats, if you could clap your hands and the pile of laundry, the corner you forgot existed—and suddenly we feel better because you’re not the one who is like that. Does having ADHD make me allergic to rigid capitalist systems? There’s two people: the ADHD person is going to look down at the cliff and see apples and yells “apples!” And then the other person hears “oh, apples?” and makes an apple farm. We're not all the same but we do have something in common. Anything that overwhelms our capacity to cope or unable to change it—isn’t any identity the world wants you to change but you can’t going to set you up for overwhelming your capacity to cope (you can’t run from it, hide it, fight it, play dead…etc.) David has a thought: when he was getting kicked out of school, his brain coded that as bad. Fast forward, he ended up going to grad school at Northwestern. And not a lot of people at Northwestern got kicked out of high school. It’s definitely not something that you talked about. But then, he started working and advocating with Eye to Eye and other groups—suddenly, his story had worth. The amount of relief he started to see on kids faces that “oh, you can recover from every mistake” and he wasn’t proud when it happened, but now it’s an important part of his origin story. In community and connection, the very thing you’re hiding is what I'm hiding--whoa, we don't have to hide, how much energy we get from not hiding this thing? When David first went to Northwestern he would lie and tell people he went to a local “multidirectional school" —those people weren’t good people and he didn’t want to be branded with those people. Isabelle doesn't want to say where she went to college. Because people from our culture don’t go to schools like that (like Harvard?) David had no models, didn't know how to say it. Everyone ‘thinks they’re the mistake.” Pause for effect, Isabelle went back and looked through her old medical records and she got her records from counseling while at college. In those clinical notes she received an ADHD diagnosis; multiple sessions where she as a client thought she had ADHD, and as many listeners will remember, she didn’t know she had ADHD until 15 years later. Isn't that really interesting—isn't that interesting that she was never told she was diagnosed with ADHD, there was no affirmation or information, and in the notes it indicated even why she was even given the type of antidepressant or weaned off, she walked around telling everyone who knew her "I think I have ADHD because I can’t focus anymore.” She wasn’t told she had a diagnosis. Even when she asked point blank. The world 25 years ago was really different, how much they maybe saved her from a tougher road. When you’re "not supposed to" be there, the messages you get at each of these places, to hide, to shame, to silence, to minimize. "Everyone has some ADHD, right?" The masking component has more consequences to neurospicy culture. We don't have the same the care and feeding instructions as the people around us, we’ll still grow but it's not the same. A potato sprout is going to grow and develop no matter what situation you're in, whether the potato is in the root cellar or planted in the earth (as Carl Rogers states, see actual full quote below). Across animal groups, culture is modifying your environment in order to adapt, at least how Isabelle learned what culture was when studying archaeology and social anthropology in college. We started to cook as a form of survival, the culture we form is the things we try to do to survive and adapt. Because we have to survive and shelter in the same places. Isabelle feels way better being a potato in the root cellar around potatoes also in the root cellar. Or at least better than the shriveled magic spell potato you find behind the drawer—forgotten produce! Another feature of neurodivergent culture.

DEFINITIONS

DEFINITIONS

Establishing operation.  The behavioral word for how a little rat, trained to run a maze, is rewarded by a drop of water. The rat loves the water and does lots of work for the water. But rats don’t naturally love water this much. So the establishing operation is to withold water from the rat for ...

Why is it so hard and triggering and exhausting to go back to school (even if you’re not a student or have a student in your life right now)? And what is this idea, “pervasive demand avoidance” (or a persistent drive to autonomy) and how can it crop up during massive transition times?  David and Isabelle come back from a summer spent working on exciting new Something Shiny resources and describe some of the demands that may be filling up your slots this time of year. Also included: tangential journeys involving the cinematic classic “Legend,” deep cut Disney songs a la Tim Curry, and Isabelle’s allergy medicine hallucination moment.

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David and Isabelle welcome fall and the new school year, complete with the way germs start circulating and sick days shoot up once the school year kicks in, and then histamine levels and allergy medicines. There may be some links between antihistamines and psychiatric symptoms (see link below!). Isabelle describes a hallucination she had when taking a commonly prescribed allergy medicine, referencing the Tom Cruise movie, Legend. This brings up how intense children’s movies were back in the day, where kids were in real mortal danger a lot and awful things happened a lot. David recalls how intense Willy Wonka was, with the kids getting killed and then the tunnel sequence, which leads to Isabelle remembering how she shopped a class in college about children’s literature and it was all about Roald Dahl and how he hated childhood and was bullied and just dealt with a lot of things that made him hate kids. So, returning to Isabelle’s hallucination, she wakes up from a sleep, she sees Tim Curry in Legend demon costume asking if she has anything to eat, and she knows she’s hallucinating, but it was in the room. She hears him working in the kitchen. She then sees a pig walk in with human hands for feet, she wakes up, she is fully awake, the pig fades away, and she walks into the kitchen, and I say “You’re not real, I’m hallucinating” and he says “of course.” Also, it was almost morning, light was in the space, this wasn’t sleep paralysis or lucid dream, she fixed breakfast, called the doctor, and stopped taking this medicine immediately. Of course she told the whole story to the doctor because of course these details would be important. David names how strange the brain is and all the connections are. And this links up to an amazing CD put out by Disney where Tim Curry sings a Davy Crockett song. David was tormented by this song in elementary school, and they would make fun of him by singing this song at him, but why did this bother him actually? Isabelle recalls that back to school season as more triggering than she realized, she would use the relationship with her teacher to accommodate her, to do the hard things and ask for extensions and try and be. The teacher at her kids’ school was not picking up on her big hand gestures and quirk and charm, so two questions: 1) back to school season being triggering? And 2) when there is a vacuum, she becomes a cartoon character, as their previous guest Ren, brought up. Going back to school is so complicated; David notices that when he sees the back to school supplies on sale, it was a “gulp,” it always meant more work for him, the break being over. Now that he is not in school anymore, it has become a bit more of a “haha, I don’t have to do that anymore.” But regardless he wants to point out that neurotypical or neurodivergent alike, this is a time of intense transitions, beginnings and endings, and routine changes, and waking up earlier (for parents and kids and even fellow commuters who suddenly have to notice when school is in session on their traffic routes), it is a hard, hard time. It’s highly activating on a nervous system level, and germ load aside, kids will need down time and fatiguing and the adjustment period. This brings up the idea of cognitive demands on us—hold up ten fingers, and each slot is taken up with a task or a load: “buying school supplies,” “I’m sad my kid and I won’t have the same together,” and “I gotta change my morning routine” — in the face of so many demands, things become a can’t, not a won’t. In the face of so many demands, I actually can’t do any more, even a pleasant thing, everything is one ask too many or one step too much. And some people don't have ten slots, they have two—for example, a kid being ushered into a transition, even like three requests of a parent is actually too many demands, and they respond with “I don’t wanna” but also what’s in there is they cannot. They can do more, but with help. They’re going to get crispy and ragey, you become oppositional, pick fights, it looks like a sensory overload, or a shutdown, I am going to avoid anything that I perceive as a demand. David not sure how he feels about this diagnostic label because when we’re overwhelmed, we SHOULD react this way. Video of how it felt for a person who is autistic went into a grocery store, the screen started to pixelate the farther into the store they got, it was like a satellite’s images during a storm. David gets into a place where he goes “NOPE” and it comes from a place where he has nothing left. Is he pathologically demand avoidant, but aren’t we all? Actually isn’t this a common thing we share across. Isabelle is going into neuropsychological testing with her family to update things, and carries a lot of curiosity going into it about sensory stuff, and wants to welcome it. You see it reflected in people around you, and ton of people around her identify as being on the autism spectrum and oh, that is where she finds her tribe. For her learning about PDA is the closest she’s come to for resetting her expectations for herself, and “oh, I’m not just trying to avoid hard work,” it’s “oh, I ran out of spoons and slots, I had no bandwidth.” David names that this is a thing that connects with neurodiversity and not being resourced. Power struggles are going to be activating all the time, and just because a power struggle is happening is not PDA—but on the autism spectrum, sound, texture, movement is filling the slots, too. It can help illustrate that it’s important to lower the demands and help your kid (or yourself) by meeting yourself with compassion. David and Isabelle also mention that they are working on a energy bar idea…more to come!

Antihistamines connecting to psychiatric side effects, like hallucinations

Legend (1985, starring Tom Cruise) trailer- Tim Curry is the voice...and shows up around 0:48. YES THIS IS A KID'S MOVIE.  

Intense kids movies

Stand by Me (1986) trailer (PS. this is based on a Stephen King short story, "The Body") YES THIS IS A KID'S COMING OF AGE MOVIE.

Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory Tunnel Scene Clip— Again, kid's movie. 

Roald Dahl book: Boy 

Disney Parks CD track list

Tim Curry sings the Davy Crockett song  (side note, Isabelle really did a great impression of this) 

Things Isabelle, David, and Bobby have hyper focused on (that are mentioned in the episode):

The Matrix

New Girl

Tall Girl

It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia

Full Metal Alchemist

Schwarma

DAVID’S DEFINITIONS:

Black and White Thinking: Believing or acting as if there are only two ways of thinking right or wrong. This includ...

Ope: (according to Urban Dictionary) - a midwestern U.S. way of acknowledging another person or thing they have encountered. Ope! Sorry I bumped into you, Jim. Ope, there’s my wallet. Ope! I missed my bus! 

(added by us): Also known as an interjection of surprise and implied apology.

DAVID’S DEFINITIONS 

Epigenetics - from CDC “Epigenetics is the study of how your behaviors and environment can cause changes that affect the way your genes work. Unlike genetic changes, epigenetic changes are reversible and do not change your DNA sequence, but they can change how your body reads a DNA sequence.” (source: CDC)

Transgenerational trauma: from wikipedia
“is the psychological and physiological effects that the trauma experienced by people has on subsequent generations in that group.” (source: Wikipedia) Imagine the collective trauma experienced by groups of people surviving slavery, wars, famine, natural disasters, etc. and the ways in which epigenetic (see definition above) may alter the way even our genes can express themselves and how we adapt and respond to stressors. For more on this, check out the pioneering work of Yehuda and Lehrner (Article on intergenerational transmission of trauma)

Dopamine deficiency? ADHD is often understood as neurobiological (brain) difference, that includes lower levels of dopamine, the neurotransmitter (messenger chemical) in our br...

What is Superdawg? If you’re in and around Chicago, you’re welcome to check it out. If you’re not, it’s still a fun place to look into.  From the bottom of our pure beefy hearts. 

Paradox of Choice - book by Barry Schwartz (TLDR for Isabelle but an interesting summary appears on wikipedia). 

DEFINITIONS

ADHD types explained through how we order at a restaurant:

• inattentive type: struggles to figure out what to order, stares at menu (accommodations: always orders the same thing or same type of thing, asking the server for their choice/having the chef or someone else choose for you)
• impulsive type: orders three different entrees (to try them all), or the novel/strange seeming thing on the menu (accommodations: finding new places to eat or food bars where you can throw on whatever you want in that moment)
• combination type: see above and experience BOTH, often depending on your level of mastery/comfort (more mastery in the environment, the more your impulsivity shows up). 

Decision fatigue: the more decisions we make, the more our quality of decisions (or ability to do so well) deteriorates. Too many decisions can lead to an overwhelming feeling, burnout and poor decisions. Avoiding the complexity of decisions, can be an adaptive tool for individuals to preserve brain power for more important decisions, especially when the inattentive-type ADHD experience is loud. Here's an article on how to notice when it's happening to you.

Hypersensitivity around texture: some textures are going to make people feel more yucky inside than you would think they could. Often times it can be really helpful to honor these sensitivities, and not try to push through them unless there's serious impact on food and nutrition.

Here's a quick article on how to cope with hypersensitivities to sound, texture, taste, smell, etc. 

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

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Isabelle was told she’s a talker, but she’s also a listener. There’s this thing Isabelle borrows from mindfulness practices and therapy ideas: what you resist persists, what you go with flows, go for the ride. She had this moment the other day, at what point is it going to be bore her? She is easily bored, she is initially excited about and then she loses interest in it, she can be hyper fixated on the thing and then it passes, and then why is it that she’s never been bored in a session—it’s never happened: when will it not be exciting or curious? It’s not the same thing as it being easy or effortless, challenge does not mean something isn’t fun, and maybe it’s one of her favorite things to do. David names: it’s amazing to be put into an environment where it’s dangerous if you don’t pay attention to listening, attending to the patterns and themes in the group—it’s almost what I’ve done in my entire life. Find ways to honor ourselves. I want someone to be able to look at me and respectfully out himself more often, and we don’t see the models are dysfunction. “This kid having ADHD and being in jail” is part of the story. Until everything is shiny! Glitter! Except loose glitter which is Isabelle’s worst nightmare. She learned, the hard way, that loose glitter found it’s way into her world, the moment you try to clean it up, it’s “this glitter will be here always.” The glitter’s arch nemesis is tape—you’re welcome everybody. You still have to sit there for hours, but it makes the cleanup satisfying. David has had the thought of rooms with too much glitter and thought: burn this room. Isabelle names that this is different when there is epoxy style glitter in a floor or a tile, or in a shoe—she loves how there’s a lot of glittery shoes, but the glitter is contained in a plastic shell. And there’s something amazing about the shiny but it needs to stay shiny and not be embedded in anyone’s skin. Isabelle's friend pointed this out: David has a pleasant voice, and Isabelle, back in high school, was on speech team, and she competed in radio speaking, where you essentially you get to be in a room separate from everybody and record into a microphone. That got her over her fear of public speaking, only they used tapes and tape recorders. Who knew? These little things, not exactly fate v. Free will—isn’t it interesting the things that had to come into play were miraculous or exponentially improbable. David thinks his survival in life is pretty lucky. Like LeDerick said, we’re statistically survivors, how did we get there? David is sometimes looking at a river and it’s all pristine and there’s this piece of trash attached to a log not getting sucked down the river, and that's him, he’s a piece of trash, and he got saved. He was powerless being swept by the current—a lot of us were—whether we found partners, or friends, or jobs or something. The odds of David getting an advanced degree, being in a counseling practice, and having the same diagnosis. There was a moment in their office, it was Isabelle’s first or second month, and we were talking about structure and stuff, and it went brain-seahorse. And David went “maybe…maybe…” and everyone else just saw, it’s going to go somewhere else. To finish the thought: once seahorses have partnered, upon the first rays of sunlight entering the ocean, they will do a synchronized dance to each other. Speaking of seahorses: the hippocampus is the part of the brain is responsible for episodic memory, ability to time stamp when something has happened in our life, seal it with a declarative context—and to connect it to David's trash metaphor, how a seahorse gets around: it attaches to kelp or seaweed and it floats on the currents, and it mates for life, and takes care of it’s babies, and it does not make sense, and it exists nonetheless. Isabelle doesn’t think we’re trash on a river, we’re the seahorses. David names that 50% of people with ADHD don’t graduate on time. Isabelle names: a lot seahorses don’t survive, statistically there’s so many don’t make it. David names there’s a lot of compassion and meaning to what we see—Isabelle is doing a lot of shaming to the trash. David is not trying to say we’re mistakes, but he doesn’t think the system sees value in us, but we have to see value in ourselves. You see me, I see you, grab my hand, we’ll do things together, we are trying to survive. David is never going to judge survival. Isabelle quotes Carl Rogers, when the potato sprouts, it’s doesn’t matter if it’s in the earth or in the root cellar, it will reach out toward the little shaft of light, and he talks about it as an actualizing tendency, we’re always going toward the sunlight, and everyone else is casting shame “silly potato” but it’s doing what it does. The labels that we put on things can be really distracting, and there’s a big debate about diagnosing, and David names that labels can be minimizing and restrictive, but with ADHD, there’s some power in that label, in knowing you’re not alone, that it’s really hard when you’re dealing with internal invisible motivational things, it's easy to think there’s something wrong with you, and you need to spend time with people that don’t make you feel like trash, and you spend time doing things, and you don’t trash yourself. But also, David identifies with the trash in the river. ANd things changed when he didn’t need the system to find value. How do you relate to yourself in seeing the value you hold and knowing that. It connects to internal family systems, there’s this interesting idea that the reason why when you’re beating yourself up, it causes actual pain—there’s another part, however small or exiled, there is another part that is taking that hit. When we’re beating ourselves up, a part of us is trying to convince the part that desperately doesn’t want it to be true. It’s like trying to beat down a part that inherently knows it has value. It’s not just practicing and noticing the strengths and the peaks, but also having the space and safety to grieve, that you had a lot more peaks, and lot of people missed it, and you were wrong about you, too—there's a whole reckoning. David would use this question to ground himself: “when did that not happen?” Oh, with these people, in that place, when I’m doing x—“where does it not happen?” Even looking at childhood, “my parents were always angry”—when were they not? This makes Isabelle think of your default neural network—you’re brain is going to always do the thing that it's most used to, because it’s more efficient to do the thing you do every day—if you’re not actively or intentionally trying to counter that, you’re going to coast—and if you’ve been knocked down, and you've been hit harder and felt it more acutely than most, and you’re default mode is going to be rough, and it does take concentrated effort to work with this, and that's where environments and community comes in.

 Dr. Daniel Siegel - the neurons that fire together, wire together

Coolest books about seahorses - Poseidon's Steed: The Story of Seahorses, from Myth to Reality by Dr. Helen Scales, Ph.D.

Carl Rogers quote “potato sprout”

...

WHO IS GOTTMAN? Basically John & Julie Gottman are relationship gurus who found an institute years ago where they research how people in relationships interact scientifically. With their experience they define the individual ways we crave, express and accept love from others. For more information, check out: https://www.gottman.com/

DAVID’S DEFINITIONS of Gary Chapman’s Love Languages (https://www.5lovelanguages.com):

1. words of affirmation - talking about your feelings of intimacy, appreciation or praise to another person 

2. quality time - making time to be in close proximity with another person doing a preferable task

3. physical touch - acts of touching, kissing, hugging, physical acts of closeness

4. acts of service - being able to take care of things or fix problems for other people

5. receiving gifts - feeling appreciation from the things that are given to you by another person

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cover art by: Sol Vázquez
technical support by: Bobby Richards

ADHD is often scapegoated within relationships. David & Isabelle are joined by David’s partner, Robin, who is neurotypical, and Isabelle’s husband, Bobby, who also has ADHD. David describes his friendship with Noah, who also has ADHD, and how the two of them have different and complementary needs and accommodation styles (for example, Noah likes structure and being on time, David is more accommodated by not wanting to let Noah down). How relationships could look when people are aware of what they are good at, not so good at, and that they need to work differently. This is similar to how when Bobby and Isabelle were first diagnosed, they had very different ways of experiencing ADHD and their sample size (“but wait, Isabelle’s more organized, she can’t have ADHD!”) impacted their understanding of it. David and Robin describe how Robin gives David a part of a shelf—a place where he could freely be messy and do his thing. Like spots that she, as his neurotypical partner, does not try to manage. The group goes on a tangent about cockroaches running up legs and spiders in your mouth while you sleep (see below). David also observes that Robin does not ask him to do a lot of things so when she does ask him, it feels novel and he received instant gratification for doing the task, so he’s more likely to do it (and eager to please the person he loves). This also connects to how Robin asks him to sweep or clean up crumbs (more thoroughly). Isabelle notes Robin’s warmth—and recognizes that Isabelle and Bobby both aren’t as warm to each other around this feedback. Robin points out that Isabelle (having ADHD) may not see the feedback as it goes, and instead notices the feedback when she’s already overwhelmed. Isabelle and Bobby note what they call a Great America moment (see below) and notes how she was able to observe Bobby circling around distracted, like a shark, and that she was able to see he needed a different environment to complete his tasks and was able to choose to go to Great America anyway (for herself): in short, she didn’t have to jump into the shark circling herself. David points out that children (which he does not have) are like the loveliest hedonist parrots (which Isabelle and Bobby add: are also the best thing ever). David also talks about mirror neurons and how people with ADHD can have much more active empathic responses, where they can really sync up to the moods/emotions of the people around them. As Bobby is circling like a shark, Isabelle’s mirror neurons are activated and she is syncing up, but Isabelle does not need the same level of intensity. How to know when you don’t need that level of intensity, knowing when you can’t think your way out of that circle (AKA Great American moment). Also important and hard to notice when you’ve self-stimulated yourself into some intense emotion but then your next task doesn’t need it. Hard to see yourself clearly in these escalated moments and how a partner can see you more clearly sometimes and help reflect back boundaries or what you need. And so when Isabelle syncs up to Bobby, she’s trying to soothe them both, instead of paying attention to taking a break and NOT syncing up, which will help them both. Bobby notes that podcast recording sessions helps everyone. Robin also names times when she and David need to ask for what they need to sync up (or not sync up). David will call and give her a heads up telling her he’s ‘coming in hot’ from his commute/work time, when she’s on the couch horizontal watching the Office or Park and Rec—how they try to meet them halfway. How both David and Isabelle forget their age all the time. 

For more show notes, go to somethingshinypodcast.com

Why is the cockroach named Rick? For no reason, except David and Robin like alliteration. 

Isabelle mentions a sacred pact between humans and bugs? Well, it’s an ancient truce predicated on the idea that if a bug is around, that’s fine, we’re on their turf, really, but if a bug is on your body without you electing to have said bug on your body, or the bug is on your bed or perhaps in the bath/shower with you, you will use whatever means necessary to remove said bug from said body/bath/shower/bed. 

What is the Great America moment? Let’s say a group of people all want to go to an amazing thrill-ride packed amusement park (like Great America, a Six Flags park in scenic Gurnee, IL), but they’re waiting on one person to finish their work before they go. Instead of making the whole group miss out if that person doesn’t get their work done, you can honor both sets of needs: let the person finish their work and then also let the rest of the group go to Great America. Then circle back and plan another time to go together. The idea is that the person struggling shouldn’t feel the pressure/responsibility of everyone else’s ‘good time’ and that everyone can hold boundaries make autonomous choices that are also understanding and inclusive. 

DEFINITIONS

Self esteem:  is a global term that has to do with how you feel about yourself, your own sense of self-worth. One thing to consider is that with ADHD, self-esteem can be believing you're going to survive an experience: that the moment of discomfort you're experiencing will be worth it it in the future. This is hard to do when your sense of time can be two modes (now or not now). When everything feels like NOW, it's hard to believe in a later or a change or in growth. And when you believe you can do something, it dramatically increases the odds that you will actually do that thing. Self-esteem is believing that you can survive, you can do the thing, and you don't have to convince yourself of that all over again every time.

Mirror neurons: this is a very complex neurological phenomenon, that is a particular favorite of ours. When you are doing a thing, your brain fires motor neurons (eg. if you know how to ski, your brain will fire the motor fires that help you move on your skis). Mirror neurons fire when you are witnessing (or anticipating) someone else do a thing that your motor neurons do (eg. your mirror neurons fire AS IF YOU ARE SKIING, when you are watching skiing on tv). Put another way, your brain is inhibiting you from acting out what you're witnessing/anticipating, but other than that, you're copying the things you see/anticipate seeing. Think about how much we learn vicariously, through observation and then trying something you've only seen before (like a baby learning how to walk! or draw! or pretty much anything!) The more they're understood, the more we recognize that mirror neurons are also involved in recognizing emotional states and sharing your emotions with others (firing the pathways of movements we do when sad/happy/angry, etc.).  Welcome to the rabbit hole, in some assorted articles below: 

What we currentl...

Dopamine deficiency? ADHD is often understood as neurobiological (brain) difference, that includes lower levels of dopamine, the neurotransmitter (messenger chemical) in our brain that gives us feelings of satisfaction and reward—the feeling of YOU DID IT…ahhhhhhh. Another way of viewing it is a neurotypical person has a shot-glass-sized need for dopamine and so little bits of dopamine fill it up enough to feel that satiation, whereas a person with ADHD has a pint-glass-sized need for dopamine. At times, you need a lot more dopamine and are starving for it, but at other times, you have so much dopamine it is so rewarding (and perhaps the reward feeling while eating that doughnut is actually that much greater), but it also makes it even harder to pull away or transition from getting that dopamine to not (imagine how hard it is to not keep watching a show you love or how it would feel if someone suddenly unplugged the tv). Keep in mind that dopamine is just one of the neurotransmitters doing some fun other stuff where ADHD is concerned.

DAVID’S DEFINITIONS:

ADD or Attention Deficit Disorder: is an outdated diagnostic label that also used to a serve as a marker (often perpetuating some shame and stigma) differentiating a person from someone who had ADHD or the hyperactive part of ADHD. Currently, everything is called ADHD, with the following subtypes: inattentive type (too much brakes), impulsive type (too much gas), or combined type (too much of one or the other depending on the environment someone is in). Folx diagnosed with ADD will often present as ADHD inattentive or combined subtype.

Neuropsych(ological) Testing: can be very expensive, and is one way to get an official diagnosis for ADHD (another is meeting with a licensed clinician who does a thorough social/school/work/life history combined with self-diagnosis). Neuropsych tests assess your reactions and responses to different challenges, and can be helpful in either the validation of a diagnosis or awareness in what kinds of supports/accommodation and modifications might be helpful. It should be noted that these tests are largely dependent on the examiner's evaluation, and aren't perfect and can be wrong.

From the Cleveland Clinic: "A neuropsychological evaluation is a test to measure how well a person's brain is working. The abilities tested include reading, language usage, attention, learning, processing speed, reasoning, remembering, problem-solving, mood and personality and more"

Procrastination: (For more, see also Episode 008-Are we designed to procrastinate?)

• this is the behavior that occurs in between the assignment of a task, and working on the task. This is waiting to the last minute, or wh...

(Part II of David’s Lecture Series) Isabelle & David welcome Isabelle’s husband, Bobby, and their friends, Christina, AJ, and Gabe, to continue to listen and learn from David’s tried and tested presentation on ADHD, which he normally gives to fellow clinicians (for the first part of this talk, please see episode 4, David’s Lecture: All About ADHD!).  We talk about Auditory Processing Disorder (APD) which often also exists alongside ADHD; however, they are two different things. ADHD can make you more prone to distraction when you hear sounds, no APD (see definition below).  ADHD can also coexist with Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD). David gets nerdy about how blood flow to certain parts of our brain connects to distraction, and how our environment can also cue us to shift blood flow to the forebrain (prefrontal cortex). Gabe notes that sports served as an important accommodation. David makes the comparison that it’s like having an energy bar in a video game, and if you don’t use it during your day, it will become anxious rumination at night. David and Bobby get distracted by Bobby’s audio equipment (or Bobby tweaking his audio settings) and David points out that being oppositional rewards us with dopamine. Debate as a dopamine booster. As a parent, how do you get out of power struggles. Talking about ADHD as too much gas (hyperactive) and too much brakes (inattentive); combined type is both, and environmentally cued (the more comfortable you are, the more gas; the less comfortable you are, the more brakes).  What about ADHD on vacation? We can get more irritable or more chill, and it can be because we have uprooted our accommodations: the structure we have in place at home that helps us get along. So we can start to manufacture structure (including undertaking vacation-only projects, getting into a predictable arguments, reading a book in a day, etc.). When we understand how ADHD impacts us (for example, starting to write a book on vacation to cleverly avoid interactions we don’t want to have, plus building in structure…but not finishing because we didn’t factor in the response cost of it) we can work with it.

Click here for slides from David’s lecture.

How genetically loaded is ADHD?

Pretty loaded. For more on this, check out this article in Nature (prepare for science!)

• On a related note, this article also points to ADHD being more of a spectrum than previously thought; as the article mentions:

In other words, ADHD is part of a set of traits that live along a spectrum, and since we tend to diagnose ADHD when those traits/behaviors/experiences are read as a problem, we lump it into it’s own bag, when really it might turn out to be a neurodivergent branch of the same tree. And so those with ADHD can exist all along a spectrum, too! Hence: calling it attentional variability rather than a deficit.

DAVID’S DEFINITIONS:

Auditory Processing Disorder (APD): a hearing disorder and has to do with how the brain processes auditory information. APD can impact attention as well, but it’s not ADHD. Note: ADHD can make it harder to hear certain sounds, for example a person’s voice in a noisy setting, but the mechanism behind why it’s hard is different than APD. 

Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASDs): a group of developmental differences (AKA neurodiversity or differences in the brain) that can cause increased sensitivity to stimulation, social, communication and behavioral challenges.  

Prefrontal Cortex (PFC): also known as the forebrain, is a part of the brain that, through dopamine, is linked to executive functioning, or the skills (check out the list below) that help you pay attention, curb your impulses, take in memories (working memory), and play with different scenarios and outcomes (cognitive flexibility), for starters. For further reading, check out this super science-y article. 

Forebrain skills that are harder for folks with ADHD (no matter the type): 

Response Cost - neurological skill that helps you know the consequences of your actions later on down the road 

Delay of Gratification - receiving the reward or win, well after the behavior occurs.

Black and White Thinking - believing or acting as if there are only two ways of thinking right or wrong. Black and white thinking makes it harder to see middle paths during an argument

Time and Organization Skills - knowing how long tasks will take, planning transition times into tasks, appropriately guessing how long something will take, or all parts of time and organizational skills.

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cover art by: Sol Vázquez
technical support by: Bobby Richards

To see some of David's slides from this presentation, click here (or visit somethingshinypodcast.com)

ADHD types explained through how we buy a printer we need:

• inattentive type: struggles to buy the printer, doesn’t take into account the cost of a lack of a printer, buys one six months later
• impulsive type: buys two printers, means to put the other one up for sale, forgets to, sits in a corner for six months
• combination type: see above and experience BOTH, often depending on your level of mastery/comfort (more impulsive). Oh, it’s fun.

Forebrain skills that are harder for folks with ADHD (no matter the type): 

Response Cost: neurological skill that helps you know the consequences of your actions later on down the road 

Delay of Gratification - receiving the reward or win, well after the behavior occurs.

Black and White Thinking - believing or acting as if there are only two ways of thinking right or wrong. Black and white thinking makes it harder to see middle paths during an argument

Time and Organization Skills - knowing how long tasks will take, planning transition times into tasks, appropriately guessing how long something will take, or all parts of time and organizational skills.

Dopamine deficiency? ADHD is often understood as neurobiological (brain) difference, that includes lower levels of dopamine, the neurotransmitter (messenger chemical) in our brain that gives us feelings of satisfaction and reward—the feeling of YOU DID IT…ahhhhhhh.  Keep in mind that dopamine is just one of the neurotransmitters doing some fun other stuff where ADHD is concerned.

The Red Dot Study… came from a book David was reading off his colleague's bookshelf, pre-pandemic. Pandemic happened. Office closed (permanently). No memory of the author. We will keep looking for it, but in the meantime, our apologies and here is a study with similar findings: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3763932/

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Cover art by: Sol Vázquez
Technical support by: Bobby Richards
Thank you to Christina, Gabe, and AJ for being our audience

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David wonders what different versions of homeschooling Ren was exposed to growing up—they describe a number of different structures, and that their family lived more on the structured side. Studies were more experiential, going to plays or museums or reading books on your own versus just listening to lectures. You’d do things based on your own pace, and it was almost entirely moms—a lot of it was birth order, the eldest kids had different experience because mom’s had more practice, and got a little more tired. Ren doesn’t want to pain too rosy a picture, it was a big struggle for many when they left the system and hit college—maybe more help with the big transition? Ren spent a lot of their first year of college depressed, going from being the ‘best’ by being a class of 1, do what I want when I want, to suddenly “you expect me to sit in this class multiple hours, multiple times a week, listening to you talk…and then do more stuff later?” Ren never had their time wasted by an authority figure, or the concept of busy work. Isabelle pictures this as a froyo shop model of education, where you get to try so many different things and combinations—a sense of autonomy and a sense of reassurance. In order to feel confident, you need to trust your experience, stealing from Good Inside with Dr. Becky. As caregivers we cut off emotional states, you can’t trust your own assessment of your own experience, and we’re coming in with a counter of “you don’t have to have that feeling,” because you don’t get a gauge for validation. Also offering empathy for Freshman-year Ren, like they saw through the Matrix and had already seen through it. Isabelle feels like the opposite of Ren—she went to school 6 days every week, she had a really old school Polish lessons on Saturdays based on the Polish school system. Isabelle is like the tame bird, while Ren feels like they were free and then were being told to go into a cage.  David is realizing he would not have survived if he was Ren—the hardest thing was everything they just described, he was oppositional, he’d drag his feet at everything. David almost saw this as spaghettification, like if you’re in two places of different pressures you’ll turn into spaghetti (see below, yikes, we edited out a more detailed and graphic description, be warned if you go down this rabbit hole). Ren walked into places with no defenses, which Ren relates to colonization, "oh hi, it's the Pilgrims again." They were touch-starved because as the eldest of 6, they hadn’t gone a day without someone in their space, but they were also failing at the thing they were good at, and they were supposed to learn how to study. They learned about how people do school on tv—they’d gather up their textbooks and just sit at the library for 7 hours because that’s what studying ‘looks like.’ They dealt with it by doing the closest thing to being a home schooler, which was being a theater major. An on-ramp would’ve been nice. Isabelle wants to mention that the part they edited out about spaghettification, if you went down the rabbit hole and it's a lot and you're not alone, and maybe we just trauma bonded and yikes. There was a developmental trajectory that moved more and more into a ‘feeling more free' direction—the more BS David could do, the more autonomy he got, and so he got rewarded for doing the BS which helped him later on down the line. Isabelle wonders if Ren was learning more intrinsically v. extrinsically, because you want your own self-reference for building pride and capacity v. approval—where did this anxiety start, if for 18 years they had themselves as their own self-reference? How it can take just one awful educational experience to challenge your sense of self. Up until college, all of Ren’s anxiety was about going to Hell—after college, it switched to everything else—they are getting things wrong in a way that is invisible to me, and everybody else feels like what's going on. Everyone else has seen the same things, but they are outside the bubble, was like an alien trying to blend in. What is a Jesus jumper, you may wonder? A long denim skirt that goes to the ankle, if you think of a potato sack with a sleeplessness. On the other end of the spectrum from Ren's mom, they did not wear Jesus jumpers and let their girls go to the college, but a lot of people think of this. The home school reference for people is white and Duggar style, Jesus jumper. So Ren's identity before college was good at running the household, not being difficult, being good at school and after college they needed to find a new thing, because nobody needs them to run a household anymore and school is requiring tasks that are stupid. So they became a stage manager because that was as close to running a household, and the validation of people needing you and the structure of rehearsals and it became their new thing. David keeps hearing that there are so many people that normalize their life based on TV—it's so real, like the Norman Rockwell version of studying with a feather pen and books on a table in a library, that’s really studying. If it looks right, I'm doing it. Isabelle wonders if this is Norman Rockwell or Dickens—and the reason she suspects this, is because she was really into historical fiction, adoring the American Girl books and she was the kid that actually asked for a quill pen for her birthday, she wanted a candle, melted wax stamps, she’s into everything David is saying. It’s possible that for her for her studying that looked like this Dickensonian image may actually have been an accommodation. 

Good Inside with Dr. Becky - talking about confidence

Spaghettification

Homeschool representation tends to be white and fundamentalist and wearing a Jesus Jumper (like the Duggars)

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

Special Thanks to Ren for sharing their brilliance with us!

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David and Isabelle welcome their colleague and amazing friend, Ren! David is excited for Ren to share their story because they were not traditionally schooled, but were homeschooled from the second day of 1st grade. On the second day of 1st grade, a kid named Jack who had bullied them all through Kindergarten, was going to do the same thing in first grade, and their mom decided—how about we not? Also, connected to their parents not being pleased with the school system in St. Louis, and they were also evangelical Christian, which factored in. They came to their diagnosis later in life, when they were already working at the Willow Center with David and Isabelle, and their friend Robin was thinking about them being newly diagnosed, and Ren was listening going “it’s not that dramatic, that’s not ADHD?” Do they just think they have ADHD because they work with a bunch of openly neurodivergent people? Then Ren talked to Robin about it for about 12 hours and realized that they were. As part of diagnosis, people are often asked about school, and Ren was not only homeschooled, but fit the eldest daughter stereotype in that they were in charge of their own schooling. And of course their school record looks like everything is fine because they were in charge of their own progress and record. Isabelle wonders what some of the things Ren thought were “normal, not ADHD” were—what tipped them off? Ren describes that them and their friend were both people with advanced degrees, and a big history of anxiety—and the way boredom works and anxiety can serve as a way to self-medicate as an accommodation. It doesn't take three hours to stress yourself out to be able to do a task—the abstract of how you think. You’ve been working with static in your brain forever and everyone else is not doing the static? Ren has done a lot of identity work whereas this is a jacket that just fits—“I don’t have to work myself so hard to work.” David would brag “I just sat down and read the other day.” It’s incredible, I don’t have to fight to keep my eyes on one page, and then I retain it, and then I write about it. About 90% of their anxiety just went away. Isabelle names that when the anxiety is reduced so much, how does she get things done? It came before she was really conscious of accommodation strategies, it felt like she was unmasking way more rapidly than when she was conscious of it and replacing her anxiety with accommodations. It forced her to embrace all these limitations and then it made her feel icky to really face her actual limitations. Ren names that it was different when it is “for keeps” — and Isabelle used to think she had limitless potential but actually now she has to accept the page has been cut off. It serves her more to admit she can’t—but anxiety told me I could, if I just did more! Ren describes it as cartoon you—and also cartoon partner—the real person has limits, and you see yourself as a cartoon that’s limitless, and that contrast can motivate you, but also not. David wasn’t sitting in anxiety as much as shame, and the ADHD diagnosis came later in the life, and all of a sudden the world was not longer level, but had ice shelfs and ridges, and much more complicated environment, meant that he could unpack shame. But also this is how white supremacy affects all of us, the idea that the world is level is ridiculous. Ren is Black, AFAB, Queer, nonbinary, and so the concept of the world is level is not a real thing. In the 80’s and 90’s, David names that there was this whole idea that the world should be equal, mainstreaming, “you got your needs met, so you’re failing now…” and it didn’t really work. David’s bias is around creating inclusion and having all sorts of neurotypical and meurodivergent kids doing the same work with different expectations and breaking the illusion that the world is level. Ren’s way of homeschooling was the way that the schooling then applied to her other 5 siblings; they were the type A, just want to learn something. Their mom was still asleep and they woke their mom up, saying “it’s time for you to teach me something.” Their brother was diagnosed early, took their fridge apart, and Ren was reading and researching all the things. They were already at the top off the hierarchy in terms of learning, and you could tell which kids in the homeschooling group could adapt to the school environment and which kids never should be in this environment. Isabelle is curious what the homeschool environment looks like? What was the structure like? 13 year age gap between all the kids, their mom had the most executive functioning in the family—there was a list of subjects and a bunch of criteria for the subjects; she purchased textbooks, literature, and a homeschool group of a couple hundred, and they would get together and swap resources. Couple of a moms were good at music, and art, and match, and everyone would swap resources. Their transition to college was “oh God, so much being told what to do at all time.” Every year they took a state test to see what grade level they were at, and would get progress reports. Their mom worked in education her whole life, so she was not dropping standards but doing it for religious reasons. There was a vibrant community and not being penalized for wiggling. It was an evangelical Christian homeschool bubble, but nobody’s mom had the time or energy to be committed to you sitting still, they were trying to pack lunch for 8 people. For Ren, that concept of asking an authority figure for permission to move their body from place to place—this only happened on tv.
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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

Special Thanks to Ren for sharing their brilliance with us!

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We talk all about how kids need routine and structure and compassion and positive reinforcement, but you’re going about your life as a parent or adult, and you may want to yell “I need an adult!” And there is no one. David then names that parents beat themselves up because we didn’t do the taxes or whatever—but you just needed help. How much you need to do in a day, it is an impossible task. People that get everything done in a day are not happy. Isabelle shares that it helps her to stay busy when she’s taking care of everything all the time instead of staying present when she’s understimulated by playing with kids in activities she’s not super jazzed about (despite her kids being incredible!) What does it mean to chronically take care of everyone’s needs…and then menopause hits and suddenly, after perhaps toxically trying to take care of everyone all the time and making that where you get your sense of value from, you have to reset? This brings up all the hormonal shifts women experience throughout life—puberty, menstrual cycles, trying to conceive, pregancies, perimenopause and menopause (technically perimenopause lasts on average 3-5 years and menopause lasts on average 7-14 years, so I guess it’s a 10-20 year span depending). David names that dopamine bonds to estrogen, you will naturally feel good taking care of people, and then all of a sudden it cuts off, it’s gone—so doing the things you used to no longer provides any enjoyment and what do you do now? Acknowledging that no one talks about it and partners are left flummoxed. Isabelle is standing on her little rebounder/trampoline and almost fell off because it was hitting her that this makes so much sense but also, WTF?!  Why isn’t this a part of our larger conversation? Because everywhere in medicine, we are following a history and setup that is designed to care for cis, White men and we’re missing so many people and leaving people feeling like they’re doing something wrong. In his day to day, David tries to be extra careful about what he makes other people responsible for, and actively attempts to take things off of someone else’s plate. Because he can see this affecting everyone in his life—checking his male privilege. But beyond this, it’s also that he assumes his partner is doing more than him at all times—whether this is true or not. It changes the establishing operation and puts new value onto the little things. It means because we take the hit we will do it for our team or our group member. It makes tedious tasks into being more important. As a parent you are also busy parenting yourself, you have to see yourself through things as an adult, and you practice doing it for yourself. For neurodivergent folx, we can struggle with identifying with the internal states we have or our emotions or expressing the emotion. Isabelle finds it is easier to externalize her feelings, like visualizing a little you needing things and speaking to that little you makes it easier for her to figure out what she's actually feeling and needing. Also comes from not having a bunch of fellow neurodivergent people around you sometimes, if there is no person around you to validate you, your experience gets missed--you need to get that mirrored back. It's like being a room of neurodivergent people and suddenly feeling that someone else gets how in every drawer there is a "good spoon" and a "bad fork." Isabelle deeply concurs. There are bad forks! There are good spoons!  there’s a good spoon in every drawer—which leads Isabelle down the road of ice cream spades and sample spoons (go Jeni’s) — and what about ice cream scoops? David thinks we should be able to slice out our ice cream with dental floss or peel away the outside of the carton, or even have a timer system and go to town. Isabelle remembers how her friends that worked at ice cream shops would grow massive Popeye arms (just on the side they were scooping with). Her kid also showed her how to use the ice cream scoop, she’s hacking away at the ice cream scoop, it’s not dissimilar to how to watch kids pick things up—full squat to pick things up. Because of heaviness and just nature, kid let the weight of the scoop do the work and then twisted it. She has not been able to be replicate it, and it is maybe part her and part scoop that leads to this problem she has with the scoops. David believes it is still an engineering flaw. David then shares his recent ice cream invention, using his giant packs of fruit leather. Cut out like wide pizza slices of fruit leather, fill with a spoonful of ice cream, then wrap fruit leather around the ice cream. You gotta work fast because it freezes instantly...but then you can handhold your ice cream. We will totally collaborate with a listener who wants to partner with us on creating the perfect ice cream scoop. This also brings up how for David, the key to being able to wait for his fruit leather was totally forgetting about it. The best hack for delaying gratification? Forgetting you're waiting. Forgetting is way easier than remembering, actually--you skip the extra steps and accommodations you use to remember (like marking your calendar, flagging the email, writingi it down)...and voila! Distract yourself! Teflon mind (minus the hazardous chemicals).

Rocky Road to Perimenopause (Harvard Health) 

Menopausal transition (NIH Institute on Aging)

Dopamine loss with estrogen loss (as in menopause)

Dopamine’s relationship to serotonin, dopamine, and glutamate 

Jeni’s is an OHIO thing 

The spoons mentioned are the Jeni's tasting spoons and ice cream spades; if you go to your local Jeni's or order from your specific closer shop, you can find them; they won't appear on the main Jeni's merch site. 

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

Special Thanks to Jeni's. For our ice cream tasting spoons, spades, and flavors. Isabelle recalls the glory of your ol' sundaes...with that dark chocolate and amarena cherries and candied pecans and buttery fresh whipped cream...(sigh). 

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It’s a dog whistle, if anyone listens to our show not on double speed, they are our friend, welcome to team shiny. Isabelle is still digesting the idea of what it means to put things down, to pause, to slow down, to ask herself “is now the time to do the thing?” And she wonders if this comes up against how rough time blindness is real. The idea that things are either now or not now. If she doesn’t do it now, when she’s thinking of it, and she has the wherewithal to do it—she’s going to forget it and not do it. She’s gotten ten messages at the same time telling her “multitasking is not great” and find a way to do one thing at a time, and in a sequence. But she does better with more stimulation, so isn’t more is better in terms of keeping more tabs open at the same time? Which David agrees, if we close a tab, we’re never going to remember about the website, we have to have tabs open—the way we see the world, and object relations. When we put things on a table, it just becomes a part of the table. You won’t notice it again until someone says something about it and you have to address it. There is an immediacy to things. David wants to rebrand what multitasking is, we have to find new ways to think of time. There was a TikTok where someone goes “5 minutes is an eternity, but 300 seconds is not an eternity” if David thought he had 300 seconds he might not do so much, but if it’s five minutes he’s going to do ten things like change jacket and switch shoes and start dishes and unload laundry.  We will naturally try to maximize what we’re doing in a time frame. And the end of time is a transition—it’s really hard to stop and complete the task. The dilemma is: how many things can we do in this moment in time so we feel like we’ve maximized the 15 pounds of material in the 10 pound bag. There is a lot of starting on 18 things—but then the same thing happens, all those things in motion become part of the scenery, and then we’re stuck without the things we didn’t complete. So when we stack our time with 10 things, we lose every time because we have 5 things we don’t complete. Isabelle is into embroidery, her new hyperfixation—it’s always a loss to put it down, and it hits extra hard to stop hyperfocus. And then there's the thing where she doesn't want to do something and she has five minutes and she’s going to do so much before she gets to her doctor’s appointment. This is not dissimilar to how she habitually overcommits herself. Of course she wants to help, and it's always a yes, it’s always enthusiastic consent. But when she's faced with doing it, she feels total failure, and it connects to the thing where actually she feels like she’s failing even more. David is clarifying: one intervention is just for one person. So for David, he puts on his good day socks and thinks of something to do—so he makes a note. Then, when he has a pocket of time in his day, he looks at his list of things and picks one—he knows he cannot do them all. But then Isabelle wonders: how do you remember to only do one thing? David names that this connects to hyper focus and momentum, like when Isabelle is getting into the knitting—to which she replies, no, it is not knitting, where you count stitches, she cannot do that. This is embroidery, where you stab cloth over and over again and see results real fast. And David wonders, as an adult, you can dictate space and time to do this—but what if you wanted to do something, but you couldn’t dictate the time to do it—it would be sad making, but more than that, you’d want to do the thing MORE. Is this what happens with kids and video games? With a lot of addictive things, like candy, eating— the more rigid we are, the more we reinforce counter control, the more likely they're going to want the things we’re supposed to have.  This is how kids with candy in the house don't grow up to binge on candy because it was normalized how to interact with it. This resonates with a book Isabelle has yet to read, Low Demand Parenting (see below) that connects to how limits on screen time, routines, punishments, even gentle parenting techniques that are really reflective and ask the kids to really think about their thoughts and feelings may not easily apply to neurodivergent kids—because they all emphasize self-regulation and executive functioning, which is the whole thing we’re not great at. So she just thought about the values she thought about building up relationship and confidence, you don’t have to do hard things alone, building up autonomy, if it’s kept from me and someone else is the game keeper, I never learn how to manage it though practicing. And David adds, you never get satiation, you never get ‘enough,’ you never internally experientially learn “it’s not the right amount for me,” like the tummy ache you get when you eat too much sugar. It’s also that you innately start to learn what to do when, including hyper focusing on things: it's not that you're not that you’re not allowed to do it, it’s when you do it. And you don’t have to earn it, what's the baseline you get for just being a human and it doesn’t get taken away. Never take away a coping mechanism, a self-soothing mechanism, like videogames, or books, or interacting with friends, because if you take away the coping skill as punishment you are taking away the thing you need to self-regulate, so you have less of the thing you need to be able to stop or regulate. Also, you get locked in power struggles, which with neurodivergent folk is like watching the bears eat each other, as Isabelle puts it. David names: the emphasis should not be providing consequences to make someone to do “right,” it’s how can you get someone to feel enough wins to feel good—this helps with behavior change. If punishment works, it only works with that reinforcer (aka with that person). You don't learn to not do the thing in general, you learn to not do the thing with that person. Or like larger rules, a family David knows would tell the kid “don’t touch, it’s hot and dangerous!” And that became the thing they'd say when something was dangerous “that’s hot!” And then when it came time for the kid to actually test the boundaries they felt like they couldn't really trust what people said because things…weren’t hot. Isabelle is by no means a perfect parent. In fact, she yells, she meltdown, she shame spirals all the time—this is a thing she’s very much learning. And she’ll give herself credit that when unmasked, she is pretty direct and blunt, and takes away the mystery and just names the thing and the context for the thing, like swearing. This makes her think of swearing and her dear friend who is neurodivergent, who delivers data on a thing with maximum warmth and bluntness. This is something she wishes would visit her when she’s doing too much: “Dear, that's impossible. Pick one thing.” 

Low Demand Parenting by Amanda Diekman

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Isabelle does not like to be scheduling, she likes to have scheduled. She does not like to holiday, she likes to have had a holiday season. During the recent holiday break, it was a structureless day, the kids were home, Bobby was working, and Isabelle was in one room all day, and realized how much of her executive functioning short circuited, and also how much her memory is reliant upon changing rooms, and sequences of physical actions, all of which were missing because everyone was on break and out of routine. So she found a cheap system for a voice assistant. And it has been game changing for her family. It doesn't have to live inside her head, the routines, the rhythms. There is an external nag doing the nagging for her and the rest of the family. She wonders why all her planners and lists and things don’t do it but this voice assistant does? David explains that it’s because it comes to you, you don’t have to go to it to get the information. Unless it exploded or fired out papers into the world, you have to attend to it to be reminded. It’s a partner in executive functioning. Instead of having to outsource it to your partner so much. You can program skills, sequences of actions, routines, etc. Kids are learning a whole sequence but I don’t have to teach them all the time. A lot of people ask us for parenting help, and we can talk about all the strategies to do to change behavior. The most important thing you can do is notice when they’re doing something good. When it tells them to do the thing, and they do this thing, you get to come in and celebrate them and notice it. This is a big gift it has given Isabelle and her family: instead of interacting around a stress point, and we get frustrated with the system instead of with each other.  You can program it to applaud, and it has a feature where you get it to slow clap, and Isabelle names they  have a legit slow clap in the house, and the kids love it. What you’re seeing is why this works, it is a legit intervention. Those kinds of systems are not always helpful for people. Isabelle learned the hard way that it was left on storytelling for too long and wild and they had to wrangle in a more soothing bedtime routine. But as David reminds us, if you’re not listening to it as it reminds you, you will learn to never listen to it. Same as with a visual timer, you have to keep yourself to it, because otherwise you are learning to ignore. Isabelle has a certain feature where she has to answer a question to a reminder, the beeping doesn’t go away unless you interact with it. Also, setting up timers with music, setting environmental cues through music and setting up an ambience with parts of their routine. David never uses timers, because he only uses them when it’s go-time. He’s a person who really values privacy. It’s an emotional battle, unless you’ve gone through the options to change your phone settings, they are listening to it. The different options are essentially a whiteboard that speaks to you, a diary that buzzes after you, a friend that doesn’t forget—you do have those resources if you don’t have this device. This is also so you know you can find options that aren’t digital—but be careful of overly depending on people, because dependency breeds aggression, and that is one of the things about these robot overlords, are you can be as dependent as you want on them and be as aggressive as you want to be and it doesn’t hurt a person. When kids get frustrated with it, or I get frustrated with it, it’s happening to an object rather than to yourself, or someone else. Isabelle casts no judgment on those who choose privacy over these devices, because she tried one out a few years back and she was very much against it, it felt creepy to her. She didn’t really explore it or work with it. The thing that changed her minds was the realization of how much of the working memory and routine and reminders this offloads, the difference is it’s not on her to remember. So she’s like “go ahead and sell me all the dog food, because it's worth it.” David is a good person, he’s not worried about the things it finds out about me…so it would sell me the fruit leather? But it might be so clever it would question if David really wants 4 cases of 500 of them. So David decides he would NEVER get one because he doesn’t.

What is Bluey? 

Isabelle notes: Brace yourself, this show is powerful and not just for kids/parents/caregivers of kids. 7 minute episodes with brilliant writing and solid visuals all teaching you how to be a human modeled by cartoon dogs. Special ND note: Many fans argue that the shows titular character is a ND tribe member (I welcome her with open arms); there is more overt mention in the episode “Army," which features a character named Jack (who continues on in the show) who many argue represents a neurodivergent kid—to watch him find connection and confidence is pretty incredible....OH THE FEELS.
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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

Special Thanks to Bluey. Best show that sums up real life for kids (and grownups) with humor, compassion, and just plain brilliance. Watch “Flat Pack.”

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Isabelle wonders whether she even knows what a little yuck is; she turns everything else in to a big yuck, or a bunch of ‘to-do’s’ — for David, a little yuck helps the larger household, but the timing and the coping of it is just for you. Like doing the dishes so he can prep for a speech, or laundry (even though he had just done laundry) because he wants the option to wear a certain pair of pants. The same energy level existed, it was not on today’s to-do list, and he just did it to keep moving his hands. Isabelle is suffering from a blindspot here: she doesn’t really permit herself to do a little yuck, then return to something you enjoy…but she doesn’t have a to-do list anymore? That feels impossible, she doesn’t know how to not to-do list. David describes how he doesn’t have a written to-do list, it’s connected to a day off physical routine and he calls a friend and then goes for it. But for his to-do list on his day off, when he didn’t have a bunch of things he had to do. He held back from going off the rails and doing too much, he actually held back and stuck to his easy-level plans. Isabelle describes how she does not like to cook or bake, but if she can do it at her leisure, then she enjoys it. She embraces doing it without pressure and she doesn’t feel the chore of it. But the load of things she has to do feels endless, she has never carved out the time where there is nothing for her to do…she doesn’t have the experience of time where something is not expected of her, or she doesn’t expect it of herself. David’s boat is privileged in that he doesn’t have kids and he is not a super person. He is very aware of how much time is taken from someone around childcare, he sees parents doing everything, and doing everything you need or everything your child needs, you can’t really do both. The messages from society is “you’re not allowed to take care of you,” or “you’re supposed to take care of other people.” This feels more like a “mom” thing than a “dad” thing—but it's not accurate. When we’re talking about trying to find the little yuck in Isabelle’s life, the equation is different. For Isabelle, in her world, there are several agents of chaos that enter and are rerouted to priority, and there’s never a moment where she can’t be interrupted or distracted from whatever is happening. There isn’t enough time to feel the thought “I have a lot of energy and there’s nowhere for it to go.” She thinks of a meme she saw where a woman ushers her family out the door. And she finally has time to herself; does she sit and stare at a wall or does she panic clean? Isabelle really struggles with making a decision with what to do with her time when she doesn’t have the constant demands, the volley of little yucks stops, but then why does she choose a little yuck? David goes really complicated, with this thing called an establishing operation.  The behavioral word for how a little rat, trained to run a maze, is rewarded by a drop of water; the rat loves the water and does lots of work for the water, but rats don’t naturally love water this much. So the establishing operation is to withhold water from the rat for 24 hours first: the establishing operation changes the reinforcement of the reinforcer. So the yuck meter for Isabelle is totally blown out. So you have to take into account what is the establishing operation for her—and it might be that what do you do to make this time guilt-free or how you set it up to make it yours. What can you do so you don’t feel bad for watching 3 hours when everyone gets home? That really rings a bell for Isabelle; it really connects for her around the challenge of what it means, to even sit down. She really doesn't ever sit down. She recovered from a fractured pelvis because she didn't sit enough. This means changing her relationship to resting or hitting the pause button and carving out the unique, new structure, when she is on her own, or has a lot of energy, or has the agency and privilege to exercise it. She has to change her establishing operation. David names that you have to give yourself the real reinforcement that you need, and not trick yourself into doing chores (that would normally ‘reward’ you with a different set up).  Isabelle names that recent training with Hallowell and Ratey (see ADHD 2.0 book link below) is that rumination neural network in the brain is designed for creating problems, and another neural network runs when you’re not doing anything, and another neural network is task positive (you’re trying to do the thing). Now with neurotypical folx, you can flip a switch and go from one mode to another—you can choose! Like what a lot of therapy models use. But if you’re neurodivergent, the environment is what presses the levers, otherwise they’re all going at the same time. Isabelle recognized that the rumination network is always running, and how something about how she can’t switch the levers has to do with the fact that her environment for rest is not different from her environment for everything else (her home). She really needs external cue to signal to her that the thing you think you’re working with is different; she needs a solid external boundary to help with this. She needs to know when they take the water away. Otherwise she’ll keep working and not attend to herself. And she doesn’t know it changed. The rules don’t work anymore, it's not “you,” —maybe it’s everything else? Or is it maybelline?

“Maybe she’s born with it, maybe it’s maybelline.” (Commercial from the 90's: brace yourselves, this is so 90's it's almost unbearable).

Huberman lab episode on little yucks — he calls them “Micro sucks” 

DEFINITIONS

Body Doubling: Someone else in the same room or within view of the person who is trying to get a task done—the other person doing the task creates the illusion of structure. In essence, a buddy is sits with you as you work on something (could be doing a task, or just quietly there, maybe giving you cues or reminders). In reference to in films, this term is used to describe a body double, or a stand in for lead actors in certain shots. Here are some basic ideas.

Establishing operation (EO): Depriving or altering the access to something to make it more enticing and rewarding. The behavioral word for how a little rat, trained to run a maze, is rewarded by a drop of water, and rat loves the water and does lots of work for the water...but rats don’t naturally love water this much. So the establishing operation is to withhold water from the rat for 24 hours first: the establishing operation changes the reinforcement of the water, makes it more enticing and more 'rewarding' for the rat.

Reiserfeiber - “Literally translated, Reisefieber means “travel fever” – but it’s not the type of sickness that keeps you ...

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David (Kessler) asks: what are everyone’s favorite accommodations? For Marcus, who was stuck carrying a giant suitcase to listen to audiotapes, audiobooks were originally not his favorite. He’d get the material two weeks after everyone else and it made him stand out in a way he didn’t like and kept it secret. Then he was working with a 10 year old kid through Eye to Eye, and the kid made a mold of his ear for an art project, saying that he doesn’t read with his eyes, he reads with his ears. Now he listens to every email he receives and sends, it’s how he reads; thanks to resources like Audible.com, it’s everywhere. It’s not just about the perception of the tool, it’s about the availability of the tool. If he could travel back in time to speak to a younger version of himself, because Kessler has a button he can press to make this happen, but only for a short time, Marcus would tell himself that “you’re not broken. The system is.” (Pause for applause). Isabelle wonders if there could be a time travel sound effect and after Flink suggests a Chewbacca noise, Kessler obliges. Claudia’s favorite accommodation is asking students what they need, and listening to them about what type of structure they like. Some like more, some less, some need a quiet room, some need to get up and walk around. David asks, is this essentially giving students the agency back? She agrees. And if she could go back in time, she would tell herself “Everything is going to be okay.” (Pause for snaps galore). After a tough rock-paper-scissors round, Kayla goes next. Kayla’s favorite accommodation is speech-to-text, she’ll step out of the classroom and talk it into her phone. Going back in time, she would tell herself “don’t listen to everything your peers tell you.” (Pause for snaps). Often the hurtful words don’t have anything to do with you, they have to do with what’s going on for them, like a kid who came up to her after saying something hurtful confessing that he was just hiding his own dyslexia. The second thing she would say is “Do you. Don’t think about the way people look at you because of the accommodations you use, or the things you need to do, because at the end of the day, it’s all about making an even playing field.” Her getting extra time on a test is to level the playing field. Flink goes next and shares his least favorite accommodation was getting extra time on tests, because it was him still having to do a test poorly designed for him. As an adult, it's his favorite accommodation, because he now sees it as kindness to have extra time for how he learns and thinks. If he had a time machine, he’d tell himself: “look, you’re going to have to have a strong backbone, but keep your wishbone strong, too.” Isabelle just asks, before we ask questions, that we close the time travel loops and return to the present moment. (Cue Chewbacca noise and a small disagreement about whether Star Wars technically involves time travel). Now it’s time for questions from the audience, the first one being: How is everyone doing? Everyone is doing well, considering they just shared something so vulnerable in front of hundreds of people. Another audience member asks: How can we educate ALL our students? How can we set it up so that we don’t feel stupid or incapable? Kayla starts: building communities, like with Eye to Eye, where there is a place where you have allies and you can see people going on to do great things, like Kayla witnesses when attending the Eye to Eye conference. Claudia names that schools and teacher trainings are underfunded, and they want to learn more and be better equipped but they’re not able to afford those trainings. She also wishes for students with single parents and those who don’t have the means to get access to resources and supports, too. David names that teachers are absolutely amazing and are doing the impossible. We are working with antiquated education system; we have phones that can look up data but we still get graded on memory, v. The questions we ask; teachers get punished if students don’t fit the mold and don’t perform well, but the mold itself is out of date. What about noticing the complexity of the questions students ask, rather than what they know? Marcus wonders why did it take us so long to embrace technology? One of the things he was always told was, “Marcus, you’re not going to have a calculator everywhere you go.” Everyone freaks out. David was told “you're not going to have spellcheck everywhere you go…” Marcus wonders at the teachers who scorn their student’s use of AI, but then they go home and use it to make their lesson plans…it’s odd to see this kind of resistance always, to new technology. He references that when ink pens first came out, there was pushback that quill pens are how you should write.  There was a time period in this country when left-handedness was illegal. When left-handedness was made legal, there were skyrocketing rates of left handedness, then it plateaued. He suspects we’re in a similar situation with neurodiversity, where “every single kid is being labeled with LD” and that’s not true, it's more than we’re learning more about the brain every single day, we’re decreasing the stigma as we go. Kessler wonders: who wouldn’t benefit from an individualized education plan? And from desegregation of classrooms? Having different people of different abilities doing the work, together? Flink wants to add that yes, culture change, yes to funding, but what do we do right now? Tomorrow? We are a people-powered movement and country, we can create the change we wish to see by sharing our stories and advocating for ourselves. Chloe asks: how do you combat the stigma around LD and ND within yourself, and how does it work when you’re a part of the education system and an educator? Kessler wonders in general how to address stigma—Claudia responds that as someone who identifies as neurotypical, she tries to build relationships and share her story. Kayla describes going above and beyond; she remembers how her case manager, who was in charge of her IEP, thought she should stick to a trade school and work with agriculture. Kayla’s family responded that this didn’t track with Kayla’s interests; the case manager responded with “you better get used to it, because that’s going to be the only thing she can do;” Kayla’s grandmother was LIVID, she doesn’t take anything from anybody, she told her off, she got Kayla a new case manager, she found tutor after tutor until something clicked. Kessler names how hard Kayla had to work to see a future for herself. David tackles the stigma question himself, with all of his vulnerabilities up. He has a therapist: not because he is broken, or deficient, but so that he doesn’t feel things alone. There is a shadow side to stigma: anyt...

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David Flink shares his story, where he had a family that backed him and had a lot of privileges (being a white male in this country), but he was “invited” to leave four schools. He did not have a community. He met with his first student while he was in college, despite their neurodivergence in common, was very different from him—single mom, Cape Verdean family—became the closest person to him. He met Marcus, and they connected about getting their meds at 3p together, and now, 25 years later, here they are. Marcus points out that people think he was always talking about his learning difference, but he wasn’t, he was going to school to become a teacher at King State college, and he was talking with David, and after he shared his experience in the classroom he was student teaching in and seeing the impact that made on the students, he said “no one is going to listen to us, we’re 22,” we both overcompensated, were so extra professional, always showing up to meeting in suits, having to convince people that they could do this. The first person he openly talked about his learning difference with was David. Isabelle jumps in with her story; daughter of Polish immigrants, rags to riches immigrant dream kind of idea, and she had no clue she was neurodivergent until her mid to late 30’s and she hadn’t felt the feeling of what it’s like to be in such a neurodivergent friendly space (with snacks, food, fidgets, people being so direct and honest!) until now, and is so grateful that Marcus and David co-created such a thing. She realizes her community is now other neurodivergent parents who are sitting in their own learning and parenting kids who may be neurodivergent and just working so hard and finding community that way. David wants to normalize what Isabelle is speaking to, which is that we tend to think neurodivergence or learning difference means struggling or hating school, and the truth is so many people realize they are neurodivergent when they lose the structure of school, when they get a new job, when they become parents. David Flink wonders, asking Kayla—we work for you—what are you seeing? What are you hopeful for? What is it like for you? She saw a lot of pull out classes, and her little brother is telling her his experience at school, and it’s a little bit better. She was not pulled out for different classes. In class supports would be helpful, but public school districts are severely underfunded—she hopes that he does not go through so much ridicule and bullying that she had to go through. He’s making genuine friendships; she didn’t have a chance to make those the same way because she was always taken out of classes and kids were too busy realizing her difference. What should we all know about Gen Z? Kayla is describing being in 5th grade, taking these standardized tests and it was on the computer, and she has to take it with the rest of the class. The upside: easier than writing on paper. The downside: everyone is done before her, and everyone is on her “c’mon Kayla, finish up the class” and it just wasn’t enough—if she had the proper accommodations, she wouldn’t have to deal with that bullying. Claudia thinks that this is going to continue to change and evolve. Her Zoomer (wait?! Is this the next generation name?!) Got early intervention and proper accommodations and is dunking in all his classes that are not easy classes. If you have parents that start with acceptance, then seek resources and accommodations for you when you’re really little, the sky is the limit. David names that generationally speaking, don’t sleep on accommodations, and effective early intervention is making a difference we weren’t even able to see before because it wasn’t a resource that was even available to earlier generations. Claudia names that each person’s unique potential and style of intelligence is different, but this sets someone up to live up to their unique greatest potential, whatever that is. Isabelle jumps in with the idea that it’s also a systemic thing, to recognize (as author Julie (see show notes) put it in a talk earlier at the conference) that Gen Z is the first generation of students to even have social emotional learning standards as a part of their curriculum, we’re now seeing the changes because it’s not just on parents to nail it, it’s the larger change that has to happen to a culture through awareness. Marcus names that this cultural change always takes longer than you think it will; when they were first starting Eye to Eye 25 years ago, they were referencing studies just completed by Marshall Raskin about what helped kids with LD to help them launch into adulthood—metacognition, social emotional skills—and David and Marcus were trying to develop an art curriculum that would develop that for students. This was a foreign concept in 2002, and there was a big push for them to “tutor.” They had been tutored, and tutoring means “fixing,” and dyslexia needs “fixing,” and the great book “Overcoming Dyslexia” had just been written (not so great title), and it was awful. Turns out tutoring someone who can’t read by someone who can’t really read is a bad idea. But social emotional learning—BOOM. Changes everything. So they were doing this forever ago, and it’s still something they have to advocate for. It takes generations to make these changes. When David (Kessler) started working with Eye to Eye, he would ask a room full of people “who here has a learning difference” and people would reluctantly barely raise their arms, v. Now- now people own it and they talk about ableism sucking and what can we do to fight society, and… students who know they’re neurodiverse it’s a big difference Kayla sees. She also knows that her school setting matters. She is in a private school for high school, and people who know they have an LD and are proud of it, while her peers in public schools haven’t had the same supports and staff who are also ND modeling it for them. She goes to her teachers at the beginning of the school year, and she advocates for what she needs, and her teachers self-disclose their own ND to her. David describes: kids that aren’t shamed feel better about it. We can’t really learn with shame. Kayla also describes how she has to keep advocating for herself, teachers don't really know what you need and you keep having to explain and name your accommodations.

Julie Lythcott-Haims - OI speaker and author of "How to Raise an Adult" and "Your Turn: How to Be an Adult"

To learn more about Eye to Eye, visit www.eyetoeyenational.org

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards
Special Thanks to our amazing panelists: Marcus Soutra, David Flink, Kayla Dumas, and Claudia Bouchacourt for their courage, enthusiasm, and willingness to be vulnerable and real. 
Also, so grateful for everyone at Eye to Eye National: Sabrina Odigie (Eye to Eye Executive Assistant)...

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David introduces this live panel and that we’re all here to talk about neurodiversity across generations. There is this potato that came up in Ireland, called lumpers—exploded the population, everyone grew these yummier, bigger potatoes. But a Spanish galleon brought mold that took out only the Lumpers—when we lose diversity, we had the Irish Potato Famine. Throughout the generations we’ve had different pressures to keep or lose different parts of ourselves.  Beginning with a cheesy icebreaker, the panelists introduce themselves - David Flink (co-founder of Eye to Eye National), (he/him), Zennial (born between 1979-1981), and ice cream. Claudia (she/her), Gen X, French fries. Marcus Soutra, elder millennial (remembers dial up sounds and getting one song downloaded during dinner time), French fries. Kayla (she/her), Gen Z (no knowledge of dial up sound), French fries and ice cream together. David (Kessler, SSPOD co-host, he/him), Zennial, French fries. Isabelle (Richards, SSPOD co-host, she/her), elder Millenial and the original AIM Dizzabelle (with no numbers), specifically Five Guys cajun spice fries with strawberry shake. When did you or your loved one first identify as neurodivergent? Kayla shares that she was a premie baby, and already qualified for early intervention, then when she went through the public school system, she realized she learned differently then the rest of her peers, it took more time to get information, spell things differently, kids start to pick at you. Her family went back and forth with the school district to get her properly tested, and it was a battle, but finally, in the 7th grade, she was diagnosed with dyslexia and dyslcalculia, but her family always knew. How did you family react to your diagnosis? Kayla’s family were totally fine, it wasn’t completely shocking, her uncle and grandfather both had dyslexia, and her grandmother immediately knew because they were high school sweethearts, and she’d help him with his homework, so she saw the signs and immediately knew. Marcus was identified in 3rd grade, sort of the “classic” story, first with dyslexia and then with ADHD. Everybody reading looked like a magic trick that he just didn’t know how to do. His family reacted in a complicated way, they weren’t sure how he would react to the label, his mom has been identified with dyslexia since, and she was fearful of that label, because in her generation, she was labelled “dumb” and “stupid,’ because she didn’t have the luxury that Marcus had of having dyslexia and ADHD identified. When Marcus first heard the word dyslexia, it was from his 4th grade classmate, Karen, who was the one woke Karen (poor Karens everywhere, btw), when they were grouped together in a reading group together. Marcus thought it didn’t sound good, and that was when his mom first talked to him about it. We’re starting to see the differences in how boomer parents reacted to these diagnoses. Claudia noticed that something was different about her son when he was a baby, and went to Dr. Google and researched, and he ended up being diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder at 18 months, and has since been diagnosed with dysgraphia and dyslexia. David points out the differences in being diagnosed much earlier, and Isabelle notes that you have access to something like Google to get more information if your peers or family doesn’t have access to it. Claudia names that her generation was also prone to Googling harmful things, so she stuck to peer-reviewed, science in her research. David Flink names how different those early years of time, were for him. He is a White man in America, mom is an educator, they had some means, and he was first identified as “stupid,” long before he was identified as dyslexic. That identity still stays with him. We want to give him a big hug. There are parts of our identity that develop in the absence of information. For David, his symbol recognition disorder (form of dyslexia) was caught in 4th grade, because of his spelling, but no one caught his ADHD until he was in college. There’s a part of him that, in the absence of information, always thinks he is in trouble. And this connects to how people respond to our diagnosis. David names he hit the family jackpot, and someone else’s reality is so different. You can chart your life based on who you hang out with—it’s not talked about enough. What happened to those groups when you got your diagnosis? Marcus remembers being in a community of the “odd kids” or “bad kids” that was formed by accident, in a way. Marcus used to have to go to lunch five minutes before everyone to go to the nurse’s office to get his stimulant meds, and so all the kids who left to get their meds would end up sitting at the lunch table together. Kayla had a different experience, once she was diagnosed and her friends realized she was different, she had to let a lot of friendships go, specifically in middle school. Lots of friends weren’t supportive, though her family was. One kid in particular would say “oh, you’re going to the SpEd class” and she didn’t know what to say—they would say degrading things like “you’ll never go to college” and she was so young, she believed those things. She was bawling, hyperventilating, when she learned of her diagnosis, fearing “those kids were right.” Her mother countered this and gave her the example of the author of the “Here’s Hank” books, which helped her learn how to read—he was dyslexic, too. David points out that Kayla had to make choices in who she associated with, to discern who was a support and who was not. Claudia had a similar experience to Kayla, in that she and her son experienced a lot of exclusion; her family excludes them and they are rarely invited to events as a family. Her son was in a collaborative kindergarten, where half the students were neurodivergent or had LDs, half were not. Her son was invited to a birthday party in his class, and she RSVP’d, and it turned out his classmate was a neighbor, two doors down. They became friends and eventually friended each other on Facebook, and Claudia saw that the mom had posted “the only kid we were hoping would not RSVP is the only one who did, what is wrong with El Paso, TX?” They were also a White, military family in a predominantly hispanic area, and they got excluded a lot. It’s not funny to be marginalized and it takes so much courage for Claudia to say this because it is something we have to sit with. David Flink points out that here she is not alone, here she is with family. And we zoom out and acknowledge our large room filled with brilliant neurodivergent people in the audience, that this is part of what Eye to Eye and the Organizing Institute do, is create a safe space for neurodivergent people to come together; here we are not alone. David names the theme: of being marginalized, losing friends, feeling like you’re stupid because you have to take medicine. We all share parts of that story, it’s part of our neurodivergent culture. 

Lumpers and Potato Famine

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Alyssa Tundidor (Alyssa Tundidor is Eye to Eye's Senior Mentoring Program Coordinator--for more on Alyssa, see below!) facilitates a fireside chat for the participants of the Eye to Eye Organizing Institute (OI) at the University of Denver. David names this is the first time he is sharing his story and he is not holding a tennis ball and is actually sitting down as he tells it, and he’ll be squirming the whole time as he does it. His first memory is around his story, in 5th grade, he is the kid in school with the really messy hair, and he’d write pages and pages of stories-no one could read them, they were not spelled correctly. And David is quiet when he’s writing in the corner, but nobody cares what he writes. Fast forward to his first year of graduate school at Northwestern University, he feels like a fraud, like they shouldn’t have let him in, did they know he failed a class in high school? And he was in class learning about ADHD and classmate who ran the Eye to Eye Chapter at Reed College says “oh” — he braces himself to be ‘fixed’ or told things, and instead she says “there’s this think called project eye to eye starting where they take college students with learning skills and putting them together with students in high school. Wanna join?" His first encounter with the organization is talking to David Flint, and he asks what he has, and David shares he has symbol recognition disorder and ADHD, and David Flink goes: “Awesome!” And that’s the first time David heard someone react that way without the pity or the “good for you!” Skipping past a lot in high school, getting in trouble a lot, skipping school, all of that, he’s sitting in a room at the OI with 27 other peoples, cross-legged, throwing racket balls against the wall, he felt like he belonged for the first time in his life somewhere. He belonged before…as long as they didn’t know… whatever that “nerghhh” is. OI and Eye to Eye was the first place where he experienced he didn’t have to hide a part of himself. Alyssa had a very similar experience with the OI, she was 23, she was at Radford University, and there were 60 people. What is the story behind Something Shiny? David gives the real story, not the marketing story. He’s a person who thinks really big but doesn’t really think about the details, of course he wants to save the world, he just doesn’t know what to do next. And he was getting paid to do all these trainings on ADHD, and he realized that there’s a paywall around getting good information about ADHD. You have to have certain privilege to know someone, to have money, to get accurate information. And most people trying to put forward accurate information are selling something. And it’s hard to find somethings like this without a sales push. When we can increase the understanding of things, we can decrease suffering. Alyssa speaks about listening to the qualifier episode, and it made her feel really seen and really heard. We had real feels right there. There’s this idea you’re getting at, when we’ve experienced something in the world, we can make it better for someone that follows us. There’s a cultural piece of learning differently when we’re neurodivergent. If you are part of a neurodiverse community, it’s very very hard to grow up without neglect. The people who love you don’t know how to love you. We don’t know what we need, that never happened. You can’t neglect neglect, you have to attend to it. Asking a neurodiverse person “how do you learn?” The answers 30 years ago would be “it’s hard, and it’s good that it hurts” and we all kind of bought into that. And then, all of a sudden, it doesn’t have to hurt. It's okay to swivel in a chair and have every chair in your office be a swivel chair—it’s about speaking to the things that are very hard for us to own because we’re afraid we’re going to get rejected. When you talk about them, you feel like more of community, not less. Alyssa wants to emphasize the belonging aspect—what inspired David to make a safe space for people who are neurodivergent. Someone at work said to him: “Just so you know, it didn’t bother me at all, but your energy was really big—it didn’t bother me, but it could bother someone” — that person saw my energy, and wanted to work together. We have to take steps to work together and not mask. It’s like hiding the parts of us that don’t look like everyone else. “I read books, I sit still, over the weekend, I read books, I sat still.” There’s emotionality and there’s a task, but if the task is understanding what the book says, does it matter if I read it or listen to it? Creating safety is looking at comfort, looking at who you are, and not wearing masks. Immediately take that mask off. Alyssa names that rejection hurts so much when you’re ND, and it’s true. And we’re talking about self-esteem and a sense of worth. How do we feel worth? We’re often getting our sense of worth from other people. When you can find other roles in the world to make a difference in someone else’s life. The big secret with mentorship is reciprocal: whatever you are doing to help someone younger than you, you are giving to yourself. It comes back to you. Don’t want to let someone down, so there’s a power to making a difference to other people’s lives. Alyssa asks: when is the first time you felt accepted as an ND person? It made David accepted and valued for who he was. There’s more places in the world than Eye to Eye—he felt that with his brother, he feels that with his partner, his friends. Who you surround yourself by is so much what you believe about yourself. His friends, his partner, believed in David before he did. What made David decide to become a therapist? David started wanting to save the world that was on fire as he saw it. His own experience with therapists was: they’re not that great. He wanted to be a special education teacher that teaches history, because he wants to fix all of education and name all of the lies and change the world. So, in college, he went through all the teaching classes, and they were going through lesson planning, and he realized that he wouldn’t get to teach what he would teach. He’s TAing psych classes because they’re easy, and he doesn’t mind them. So he ended up leaving education, talked to a psych professor he was friends with, “don’t know what to do now?!” But he learned he could be the difference, and he believes every life represents the world. In front of him, there’s a galaxy, and a galaxy of stars, and for him, it’s incredibly important to save the world. He felt limited that he could only work people in education become better consumers and producers, versus showing people what they want in this world and then destroying the things that don’t matter. It’s a good mic, so he won’t mic drop. What tips would he give young people navigating the world that is not built for them? He names: this world is not built for you, this world makes things worse, and you make things better. The second we pretend it’s built for us, we are ignoring things. We know that if we take weight and shading in different spots, it makes it easier for those with dyslexia to read. Like a dyslexic font. So why isn’t every book printed like that? A neurotypical person can read that book, but now everyone else can. We sit in a world, where you have every answer you want in your pocket that can answer everything, but we’re still working a school system that asks students to remember answers and not ask questions (and he loves teachers)…so no...

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David and Isabelle stare down the fast moving train of holidays and expectations that is barreling toward us right now. As we approach Thanksgiving we have a bunch of "shoulds" coming at us--we should be like everyone else and even though we have sensory issues with cars, and sounds, and people, and all that stuff. Everything from sitting still from being held hostage on a plane or in the car, or being stuck in a service or sit at a table, or eating - the sound, the food, the overstimulation, while simultaneously coupled with frustration and your routine being destroyed, and all of this at the same time. This explains why Isabelle has a lurching sense of dread approaching this time of year. The holiday dread is real. David and Isabelle have covered other aspects of holidays, like speaking with family, and the glories and pains of holiday travel, and here they are focusing on food and sensory sensitivities. Isabelle remembers how growing up she was known as a picky eater but actually there were a lot of sensory sensitivities going on. She had memories of celebrating “wigilia” (Polish Christmas Eve celebration) and sitting at a much larger table, with much more eyes on her, and as someone who only ate pretty much chicken and white rice and potatoes, she was facing down a traditional non-meat meal of 12 mostly fish-based dishes (such as pickled herring). You fast before this evening meal, and then you commence the eating. She would be lightheaded and nauseous because she’d be so hungry and would fill up on dinner rolls with butter, everyone is judging and commenting, then she lives on the high of opening presents, and then they’d go to midnight mass at midnight, and then they’d light candles and means the oxygen is rapidly leaving the area in an enclosed place and so she’d either pass out and throw up. Everyone can look back in time and find the holiday memories of “we can’t believe we did that on purpose.” We don’t make time any other time of year to have these rituals, and see each other, and it's really about connections, yet we get caught up in following these rules that don’t always work. Isabelle thinks about how for years she carried the shame around this being her fault, she’s the picky eater that would end up passing out or throwing up, but then thinks about how easy it would’ve been to provide some kind of option for her. That there are traditions and ways of keeping the meaning behind the traditions, but also making even small accommodations that can make all the difference to us. How we can always make new traditions. There’s a really hard part with food: there are people that work really hard for hours in the kitchen and they want you to try and see what you like about it and not like about it—how can we try certain things that work for us, and how can we bring our own food—like here’s my tub of Mac and cheese, there has to be a middle path. The way to be a gracious guest and host, and how as neurodivergent folks we can prefer to host because it gives us structure, she can stay on her feet, it helps her mask less. What is this about ADHD and food sensitivities? There’s a lot around taste aversion, what happens when we associate a food item with a thought in our head—like “eww, this tastes like sand” and we don’t eat sand…or boogers. To make the eating experience a lot more about the flavors they’re experiencing rather than the thought in the brain. Is it salty? Sweet? Savory? Textures? David is a texture person, there is a fine line between “this is edible” and “this makes me gag”—like bananas, one day to the next changes. Isabelle and David firmly agree on bananas being this type of thing, and Isabelle does not do overripe bananas, you make it a cooking liquid and you put it in banana bread. David also likes drinkable yogurt and he doesn’t mind it because he’s drinking it. If he’s moving his mouth hole up and down there needs to be something there to fight my mouth.” And crunching is stimulating and stress reducing. Whether we’re chewing ice or almost-cutting-the-top-of-your-mouth bread crust. Is it the act of chewing that’s stress reducing, or something crunchy is stress reducing? Isabelle notices chewy things, like gum, gummy chews, and chip crunch, or a cold crunch, she does not like it—there are special ice cubes that collapse in your mouth that shrink in your mouth. Tiny ball ices at Sonic or certain places have that. David knows chewing gum is a stimulation, and David is hazarding guesses with the crunching thing (like it’s objectively dominating something in your mouth, or you’re making progress, or it’s the sound itself)—there are a lot of parts of that that is soothing. If it’s paired with dopamine, your chocolate chip cookie crunch is paired with delight and celery crunch is a HORROR to Isabelle. David’s favorite crunch is an apple-pear crunch, or a jicama crunch. What is an apple-pear? What is it exactly? This links us to grapples (apples that taste like grapes), and cotton-candy grapes (it’s too much) and champagne grapes and boba. Isabelle loves it, and David describes how he never got boba, he just thought they were fun to launch and make stick to the things, and then years later, it was cold, and he got the boba and then he had a moment when all of a sudden, he chewed it up and was like boba. “Boba, you’re delicious!” And now he’s a full boba fan. There was a challenge to himself to experience it again. Isabelle wants to go on 800 food related tangents and realizes it might be a food related special interest. The sound of the crunch is a tiny sonic boom in your mouth. And David leans on a couch with his hand on his chin and his finger got in and he accidentally came down on his finger absentmindedly, and you can’t even pretend to bite yourself, oh my goodness, it is so painful and powerful. Every time Isabelle bites her tongue or cheek it feels like she severs her tongue. But also, why did David put his finger in his mouth accidentally? And if he put his finger in his mouth and chew it. Isabelle loved chewing pen cap (old school pic pen caps), and she’d chew on everything. She’d also chew on lollipop sticks, she chews on the cupcake wrapper, she doesn’t ingest these things and doesn’t like chewing, but she loves chewing paper and the pen cap, and it got vertical in her mouth and it sliced a line in the center of the tongue, and she still has a divet. Every single person who is listening has done something like that, or has eaten too many sour patch kids, or has eaten hot pizza too fast and burned their mouth open. This connects to masking and needing stimulation, and a little bit of clumsiness, oral gratification, and it’s important. Switching and making new fantasies for the holidays: if you have a picky eater, why don’t you make that with them and bring that with them? Don’t let the family shame you and make you thing you’re doing anything wrong. Take care of your family. Including yourself. So many of us will give kids the room to offer them to ask for what they need or give them alternatives—but we don’t model it ourselves. Grown up an...

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Flink names that in all these schools, there’s an adult who believes that giving young people room to tell their story can change the world. This was before research supporting depressive symptoms go down, self esteem goes up, that this work works. They are saying yes to a young person—and we are the adults now, and we can say yes to a young person. The day Flink met Marcus, his life changed. They were introduced by a professor. And then they had this whole momentum when they all met—and that’s how it started rolling. There are kids right now that are hearing this message on this podcast, through Eye to Eye chapters, and it’s unprecedented, and there are all these other hidden players that make this all possible. Kessler names that the value and the meaning of the story changes when you participate in these kinds of movements, though it doesn’t change the story itself. Kessler’s story started with a sense of being a fraud and was shame based—it wasn’t until he met Flink and Marcus and everyone at Eye to Eye that he started to see the impact of his story. It changed from a fraud story to a survivor story, there was worth in that all of a sudden. We’re grown ups, we made it—when Kessler turned 40, there was this thing that he felt like “he did it! I survived! I didn't know if I was going to do this!” And now he’s one of these old ND people, and he can remember when there weren’t CDs—there’s a part of who he is that’s entrenched in meaning that wasn’t there before. Eye to Eye creates those stories—taking high school and college students with neurodivergence and pairing them with jr high students to tell their stories through art. We have to mask—may the next generation not even know what we’re talking about when we say mask. After a generation of talking about what’s right with kids, there are schools where kids don’t have to wear masks, not like they used to. This daughter who started with Eye to Eye when she was 8, and now she wears her story with pride. How different is your life, when you don’t have to wait until your adulthood to change your narrative?- The environment in and of itself, is changing the story. Isabelle names that developmentally, that junior high age range is around the time our limbic system is storing the most vivid memories then, because they are the firsts and they help us start to make sense of our identities (see "reminiscence bump" info below!). Now imagine that the message you’re getting at that crucial developmental stage is there’s something right with you, that you’re okay, that you can be yourself, and just how contagious that is in a space, not just for kids with learning differences, but also neurotypical kids, everyone at that school. And that when you then retell your story, it doesn’t alter the original experience, but it creates a layer on top of it, and you keep adding those layers upon layers—which rewires the memory. That is actually trauma work, and can only happen in relationship, where you have someone listening. The brilliance of the Eye to Eye model is that it’s deeply relational, it includes these hidden networks and built upon near peer relationships. Kessler also points out that Flink and Marcus are actually cool. These are not people you’re feeling a sense of shame around, you’re seeing them and going “how cool are they?” Marcus agrees, they're the James Dean of dyslexia. There’s a way to normalizing it, and making it okay. Flink and Marcus held hands and took the leap—early on, thinking, he was thinking: “I am professionally neurodiverse, there’s no going back”—there was a fear in the beginning, how are people going to receive this? Finding other cool people who were willing to tell their stories and keep doing it, keep doing. Early on it did not feel as cool as it did now. Flink has a thesis on Kessler’s thesis—“it is always cool to own who you are.” That's what you see when you see Eye to Eye’s young people. Kessler met them at a time when they were really lucky where they had received kids responding to them, mirroring back to them—“your story matters!” If you visit any one of their sites, people with different races, cultures, backgrounds, who are proud of their brains. Proud of themselves. Everybody deserves the right to be proud of who they are, regardless of their background and intersectional identities including neurodiversity. Would Flink and Marcus self-describe themselves as cool? Flink names that talking about trauma sits with you—it’s great to talk about problems in huge public forums. Flink, still has nightmares, including this past week, about what happened to him at school. That’s experience is what’s in front of him able to fully embrace these compliments. Kessler was complimenting something about his essence, he thinks everyone listening is cool because they’re taking a chance. He’s still working on it. He knows that an exclamation point does not go into the middle of word, but it takes something from him to make that correction, and it takes something for him to not be judged. Marcus names how much they're showing our age by using the word cool, and Marcus is a huge Neil Young fan, the song "Keep on Rocking in the Free world," the idea "there goes another kid who will never get to be cool…" there goes another kid we let go as a society, we don’t get to engage in the community, fall in love, be your full self, that’s something—that another kid made us feel validated and cool. It’s not that we set out to be cool (or Fire, or Werk..we are clearly old), it’s that there was a reaction and a response to our stories that made us feel connected and like we weren’t alone, and that changes how you feel about yourself. This makes Isabelle think of What Not To Wear (see link below) the old Bravo makeover show that while on the surface dealt with fashion faux pas, really had more to do with instilling confidence and a sense of self—and she remembers someone saying “you either wear the dress or the dress wears you” and it's like that with brains. Side note, if you can’t take the compliment at the moment, save it in your pocket for a rainy day, just hold on to it, you don’t have to let it in yet but don’t lose it either. So maybe it’s like wearing our brains instead of letting our brains wear us? Kessler sums it up: what it feels like to have a sense of confidence and mastery, what it feels like to belong, what it feels like to have a community, and matter, and have worth. It’s impossible to embody all those things and not be cool or fire or feel your worth. Kessler asks, if everything were gone tomorrow, what would Flink and Marcus want the legacy of Eye to Eye to be? Flink names that they are committed to the next 25 years as much as they’re summing up the first 25, and it boils down to it, young people are not broken. Your brain is beautiful, your story matters, and have the courage to share that with the world. Marcus adds that “no statues,” we are not designing a movement to be remembered, if they’re forgotten, it’s fine, it’s more that it was a spark that started and built up the movement—we...

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David wonders if, given that they have already attended the Organizing Institute of Eye to Eye—and should we talk about it as if it hasn’t already happened? Or as if they are about to go…? Marcus is up for whatever, David Flink points out that this is a really choose your own adventure intro. David Kessler has been involved with Eye to Eye for years and gives an introduction. David Flink and Marcus Soutra are very important people in Kessler’s (SSPOD co-host’s) story. Flink started Project Eye to Eye twenty years ago, he’s been nominated by CNN as person of the year, he’s created a network of community around neurodivergence spanning every state. Marcus is so much around the connections and relationships of this organization, being the boots on the ground, working with so many people in this industry, talking so much about neurodiversity and ADHD in general. What made you think about making the OI, what is it for? The event is the Young Leader’s Organizing Institute (OI), first one held in Jersey City in 2005, and held every year since, including virtually through the pandemic, and young people from around the country come together and build community through their learning difference, neurodivergence, learning how to be a leader and tell their story. It’s a youth-led movement, facilitates their work throughout the year. Some are already activists, and some are new to it. Isabelle names that this is incredible, people are coming and being real and vulnerable and its truly incredible. There are chapters from over 20 states, and two students from each chapter come together and learn real tangible skills to learn how to be leaders and lead a program. Every student coming represents another 10-20 students back home. This event has allowed us to give students the skills and puts their oxygen masks on first, rather than the masking of hiding who you are. How did Flink dream about making Eye to Eye in the first place? It was co-dreaming, it was celebrating 25 years since its inception, and he stepped on this campus 25 years ago. The original version was a pretty small dream. Nobody had told him with any authenticity that there was something about his learning experience was powerful and right. He hit the teacher and family lottery, he did have people cheering him on. He wanted kids to know they’re not alone. And it wasn’t until he met Marcus, they codreamed. They had different life experiences, what would it look like if we brought people from different backgrounds, different states. We need young people from all backgrounds finding their way to love each other through learning differently, and it’s helping educate educators so they can say yes to when young people say what they need. They are 1 in 5 of all students; we need to encourage cross communication between neurotypical and neurodivergent folks. Isabelle gives feedback on what the whole conference experience was like, where there were signs, and no fear sweat, chairs with wheels, fidgets everywhere, and then when someone talks, you actually want to listen. Flink names that there’s where they started, and it was all about people saying something we needed to hear. Flink gave Kessler (SSPOD co-host) a series of vague descriptions of people that were all wandering the airport, and he was going to find them all. David didn’t shame Flink, he was on it—tracking down the people, looking for people who looked lost or had Eye to Eye gear—it became this amazing quest. It was like a Collect ‘Em All Pokemon adventure, and it was screaming and excitement and it was so much fun. David names that for the next 25 years, our environment continues to be helpful, but we are an education equity organization, we are youth driven. We’re here to set up the next generation of young people to ask for what they need and change the school systems. There’s a need for them to say what they need to say. Kessler names that trauma bonding can happen in therapy, where people go into the gory details and it's not helpful. The idea of “sharing your story” can provoke eye rolls. One of the things you first need to know is your story—talk about your story, how you got there. David felt like a fraud, the last thing he wanted to do is to tell anyone how he got there, and then Marcus lead it off by sharing his story, and as he started hearing everyone’s stories, he realized how much he wasn’t alone, he was suddenly aware he was not deficient in this group, not different in this group. Was there a story in particular that spurred this on? The idea is to make this invisible visible, make the hidden culture visible, from how we experience the trauma of school (or home, or work, or family, etc.) Marcus can identify the dyslexic person who points to the menu instead of reading the menu at dinner, and he names it for them, there's a hidden aspect to this.  Marcus had never met with David, and they had never met, but 9/10 they connected on things. Marcus was running an Eye to Eye chapter after school, and working with mentors, and running the art room (where they build social/emotional skills) and the idea was the invention project. Einstein was dyslexic and he was an inventor, so think make an invention that addresses the biggest thing that trips you up. One kid said “I hate school because I get bullied for using extended time on tests,” and he created this invention called Bully Be Gone—he called them death stars—the way he was able to use art and have near peer role models help him navigate that problem. For a 19 year old, a 10 year old—it didn’t matter where we were from, the emotional experience and the ability to connect and communicate with each other. That was where it was. Isabelle wonders about David and Marcus’ meet cute—and she recognizes that bullying is a massive trauma, especially when it goes unrecognized and unacknowledged. It changes how you relate to others and yourself, and it’s this big deal thing, and you’re then able to put art, movement, expression to it because it goes beyond words, and what it means for the older kid/youth—what it means for them to do that. We all want to spare others the suffering others went through—you go into this work because you want the world to not have that, and she’s struck by the amount of healing—what happens when you change the outcome of another person’s story, and that you matter (and it’s also not your job or role to), but what it means to transmute that wound —aka trauma mastery.  Marcus names that he sees this with his mentors—the first thing he says is, your story matters and it can change the life of someone else.

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To learn more about Eye to Eye, visit www.eyetoeyenational.org 

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

Special Thanks to: Marcus Soutra and David Flink, co-founders of Eye to Eye, for their honesty and heart, Sabrina Odigie for her logistical wizardry, and Philister Lukacevic, Eye to Eye Director of Marketing and Communications for his patience and help in getting these edits and materials out there!