GTM News Desk also talks about buyer-first best practices and interviews marketers who are experts in them in their day-to-day. 

In this episode, Ramli John, founder of DelightPath and author of Eureka, pushes back on the ship-it-and-see mindset sweeping through B2B. He explains why reducing time-to-value too aggressively can wreck week-one retention, how friction is actually necessary for learning, and why the teams winning with AI right now are the ones going deep on one thing, not wide on twenty.

Ramli also shares a first look at his upcoming book, Delightful Intelligence, and why the principles behind great onboarding haven't changed just because there's a chat box on the screen.

Jump into the action:

(00:00) Why AI acts like an eager intern who agrees with everything

(02:37) Pew Research: More US adults concerned about AI than excited 

(04:16) AI fatigue is real—news cycles, layoffs, and broken efficiency promises

(08:27) The shortcut mindset AI is creating inside teams

(12:24) What the best AI models look like 

(17:10) Meet Ramli John, founder of DelightPath

(19:59) Why great onboarding in the AI era still starts with core principles

(25:32) The EUREKA framework: a cross-functional approach to onboarding

(30:12) Why friction is not the enemy in user onboarding

(35:00) Chat interfaces vs. MCPs: What actually reduces onboarding friction

(40:44) The blank page problem and why "it can do anything" is terrible UX

(43:32) How many product updates can your users actually absorb?

(45:49) The right way to roll out a navigation change

(49:45) Why human conversations matter more than ever in a vibe-coded world

(52:16) Why Claude is beating OpenAI by playing the long game

Connect with Ramli John: 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/ramlijohn/

Check out DelightPath: 

https://delightpath.com/

Get Eureka: The Product Onboarding Playbook for High-Growth B2B Companies: https://www.damngravity.com/products/eureka-by-ramli-john 

Produced in partnership with Share Your Genius: 

https://shareyourgenius.com/

Resources:

Key findings about how Americans view AI: 

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2026/03/12/key-findings-about-how-americans-view-artificial-intelligence/

The 2026 AI Index Report: https://hai.stanford.edu/ai-index/2026-ai-index-report

GTM News Desk also talks about buyer-first best practices and interviews marketers who are experts in them in their day-to-day. 

In this episode, Roee Hartuv, founder of Willingness to Pay, uncovers the truth about pricing and packaging in today’s rapidly evolving tech landscape. Roee explains why the old “good, better, best” model may no longer cut it and how the Jobs-to-Be-Done framework offers a more customer-centric approach. He goes into how businesses can transition to more dynamic pricing models, including credit and usage-based strategies, to meet the growing demands of AI-powered solutions.

He discusses real-world examples from his work with SaaS and AI-driven companies, offering practical insights on how to keep margins healthy without sacrificing value or transparency. Roee gives us a look at how AI integration is reshaping the pricing landscape and why businesses need to rethink traditional models to avoid margin erosion.

Jump into the action:

(00:00) Why pricing models are more than just numbers

(03:09) AI products need a new pricing strategy

(14:37) What Jobs to Be Done reveals about pricing and value

(15:22) The "good, better, best" model isn't enough anymore

(22:39) Should AI-driven businesses always adopt value-based pricing?

(23:33) How AI pricing examples are shaping future business models

(24:58) How AI is challenging traditional pricing models

(34:46) Pricing for enterprise and smaller customers without sacrificing simplicity

(37:27) The importance of transparency in pricing

(39:38) Why customer journeys are key to the right pricing structure

(43:46) Roee's tips on testing and refining your pricing models

Connect with Roee Hartuv: https://www.linkedin.com/in/roeehartuv/ 

Check out: https://www.willingnesstopay.com/ 

Produced in partnership with Share Your Genius: https://shareyourgenius.com/

GTM News Desk also talks about buyer-first best practices and interviews marketers who are experts in them in their day-to-day. 

In this episode, Mojo Founder Eric Holland and Messaging Whisperer Anna Furmanov reveal what's really broken about how B2B companies develop and distribute their messaging. They dig into why most customer research is pulled from the most biased data available and how to document your decision-making, not just your knowledge, so AI can actually replicate your judgment. They also provide answers to why chasing every new AI workflow is making most marketers worse, not faster. Eric and Anna challenge the idea that volume of insights equals quality of insights, arguing that a single finding that changes how your whole company goes to market is worth more than a hundred tagged Gong quotes.

Jump into the action:

(00:00) Why B2B research should make you emotional about a lip balm

(00:35) What CMOs are actually talking about at conferences right now

(04:40) How shame and fear became the default AI adoption strategy

(08:41) The difference between AI-exhausted and AI-excited teams

(12:44) Four Tendencies and what it means for AI adoption

(16:31) Why B2B messaging is broken even at well-funded startups

(19:14) What separates Mojo from just pointing Claude at your Notion

(27:26) What good writing actually feels like and whether AI can get there

(32:17) The solar plexus test and how to know when your copy is working

(34:05) Why nuance and emotion are the real gap in AI writing

(39:27) Why most insight tools are just pattern-matching machines

(44:19) How to check if your researcher is actually any good

(47:30) The danger of everyone using the same tools to find the same answers

(50:01) What B2B marketing gets wrong that B2C figured out long ago

(53:21) Go deep on one thing for a quarter

(55:22) Why you should only build what you already know cold

Connect with Eric Holland: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eric-holland-not-a-marketer/ 

Connect with Anna Furmanov: https://www.linkedin.com/in/annafurmanov/ 

Check out: https://mojopmm.com/ 

Produced in partnership with Share Your Genius: https://shareyourgenius.com/

GTM News Desk also talks about buyer-first best practices and interviews marketers who are experts in them in their day-to-day.

In this episode, Camille Trent, Content Marketing Lead at Auror, breaks down what it takes to build stronger B2B content in an AI-shaped world. She shares how marketers can turn transcripts, customer conversations, and internal knowledge into better campaigns, why long-form content still works when it’s sharp and well edited, and how content, product marketing, and SEO are becoming more connected than ever. Camille also digs into the balance between creativity and brand fit, arguing that great content starts with knowing your audience and creating something worth their time.

GTM News Desk also talks about buyer-first best practices and interviews marketers who are experts in them in their day-to-day.

In this episode, Keith Frankel, CEO of Totango, shares his bold approach to customer success and growth. He explains why traditional metrics fall short and reveals how businesses can shift from product-driven to customer-led growth. Keith delves into the concept of value-driven alignment and discusses how AI is shaping the future of customer success. The conversation also tackles a broader shift in SaaS: if AI makes product features easy to replicate, companies will need new ways to stand out. Keith believes the answer isn’t product; it’s culture and operating DNA.

GTM News Desk also talks about buyer-first best practices and interviews marketers who are experts in them in their day-to-day.

In this episode, Product Growth Expert Anastasia Kudrow shares her insights on understanding user behavior and applying psychological principles to enhance product-led growth. Anastasia reveals how to turn complex challenges into growth opportunities, offering strategies that help teams drive conversions and scale effectively.

We also share that while Revenue on the Rocks is on a break, I'll be the cohost of another podcast - GTM News Desk with Mark Kilens.

GTM News Desk also talks about buyer-first best practices and interviews marketers who are experts in them in their day-to-day.

We’ll be streaming my episodes as co-host for GTM News Desk in the Revenue on the Rocks feed.

For the last episode for a bit:

I drink Merlot 🍷

Ben drinks a local IPA 🍺

We talk about working backwards from end-of-year goals, looking at historical data, and getting early input from tenured reps before finalizing numbers. Plus, different forecasting methods and breaking large goals into quotas per employee to make them realistic and attainable.

I also talk about the quarterly marketing presentation I give to the sales team to show pipeline targets and get them excited about specific marketing initiatives. We also discuss how we approach our annual website refresh process.

Natalie drinks red wine 🍷

Ben drinks red wine 🍷

We chatted about AI tool fatigue and underwhelming results from automated research platforms, clean data foundations before implementing AI, and figuring out what good marketing looks like before scaling.

We also chat our focuses for 2026, like pipeline acceleration instead of just top-of-funnel acquisition tactics, customer marketing, and the shift from website traffic to built trust to using SEO/GEO for buyer enablement.

Plus a lot about in-person customer events and programming.

We cover whether usage-based pricing will actually replace subscriptions, if AI will make product differentiation impossible, the rise of micro tech stacks, and the pros and cons of being able to ship faster than ever with AI.

Plus, we debate if 2026 will bring AI pushback, acqui-hires over product acquisitions, and whether go-to-market teams will become the main differentiator when everyone can ship features quickly.

I drink tea 🍵

Ben drinks water 💧

We chat about how the team managed morale during uncertain times, leadership's role of standing firm on strategic decisions, and being honest about resource needs when expanding to new markets.

I drink tea 🍵

Ben drinks coffee ☕

• Moving away from gating content and focusing on educating buyers

• Measuring marketing's impact through pipeline and revenue metrics instead of MQLs

• Showing more product details and UI to help buyers understand the value

• Creating content that serves prospects, not just internal team needs

• Setting proper expectations when making big marketing strategy shifts

Niall drinks a traditional British ale 🍺

Ben drinks an All Day IPA 🍻

I drink tea 🫖

We reflect on hosting this podcast, changing from an IC to a manager, and how our approach to sales and marketing has changed over the past few years.

And share our favorite drinks from the season.

I drink rosé 🍷

Ben drinks Miller Lite 🍺

She asks about sales reps' day-to-day, what makes top performers stand out, and how product marketers can support sales beyond decks. We also talk about why product marketers struggle more with sales (apparently more than product teams), collateral for sales reps, and how product marketers can build relationships with high-performing reps.

Yi Lin and I drink water

Ben drinks Coors Banquet 🍺

Ben and I were being uncreative and both just drank water

I drink a botanical tea-based liquor 🍵

Ben drinks red wine 🍷

We also go into why we don't use traditional sales methodologies, how we hire for autonomy and high standards, and why Ben is obsessed with discovery.

Ben drinks red wine 🍷

I drink rosé 🍷

We discuss topics like LinkedIn's evolution, the future of PLG motions (expanding beyond just free trials), how marketing may change with the rise of specialized freelancers, customers getting involved earlier in the buyer journey, and if competitors will ever join together to help educate the market.

Ben drinks an On The Rocks premixed cocktail (Old Fashioned) 🥃

I drink tea 🫖

We share the event's impact, like positive feedback from attendees and how that helped inform our 2025 events strategy.

I drink honey Jack whiskey on the rocks 🥃

Ben drinks Coors Banquet beer 🍺

I talk about practicing throwing smaller events leading up to it and lessons learned during previous events.

And Ben asks how marketers show ROI for customer events like this.

I drink tea 🍵

Ben drinks red wine 🍷

We cover why you want to love the product/problem at a startup, approaching startups proactively, and how to show passion and adaptability in the hiring process.

We also get into the differences between hiring for sales and marketing roles. And try to offer advice for both job seekers and hiring managers.

I drink orange wine 🍊🍷

Ben drinks Guinness 🍺

We discuss everything from celebrating the small wins, challenges when managing a team transitioning to PLG, selling experimentation, and adapting to a new unknown GTM motion.

Plus how we both felt emotionally pre and post-launch week and how we handled the excitement and stress.

I drink tea 🫖 & Ben drinks water 💧

We discuss our initial reservations, what we've learned, and the freakouts we both had while introducing a freemium plan. We also talk about how to align the sales team and leadership to adapt to selling to PQLs (product-qualified leads).

Plus why we adopted PLG (even though we had a successful sales motion), potential long-term growth from PLG, and anxiety during the adjustment period.

I drink Catch & Release wine 🍷 & Ben drinks Coors Light 🍻

Specifically, we cover:

1) Why salespeople think they understand the customer better

2) How win-loss research can fill in gaps from loss reasons

3) Marketing and sales not understanding each other's metrics or daily pressures

4) How founders or VCs can make it difficult to align on one ICP

5) Why marketers should shadow sales calls to gain firsthand experience

6) Ways to build a rapport with sales as a marketer

Eric drinks a mezcal on the rocks 🥃

Zach drinks a Coors Light 🍺

Gab drinks a homemade gin tonic with maple syrup 🍸

Ben drinks a Coors Banquet 🍺

I drink canned wine 🍷

Specifically, we cover:

1) How to identify when a product role is needed

2) Ways to align on a product roadmap and not get distracted

3) Why you need to filter customer feedback to prioritize valuable features

4) Balancing innovative features and competitive offerings

5) Ways to communicate product updates to go-to-market teams

6) How to manage expectations for product launch timelines and scope

Randy drinks a local DC lager 🍻

I drink a negroni 🥃

Ben drinks a Coors Banquet 🍻

Specifically, we cover:

1) Event planning timeline and how we pull in other partners

2) How to assign clear owners to event tasks

3) What are our biggest fears around events

4) Should you invite sales team members to your events

5) How to fix on-day event problems like not enough attendees

6) Ways to get inspiration from events outside B2B

Regina drinks Catch and Release Chardonnay 🥂

I drink Catch and Release Pinot Noir 🍷

Ben drinks an IPA 🍻

Specifically, we cover:

1) Why sales is laser-focused on hitting quota

2) Ben's experience with quota at other companies

3) How marketing can not bother sales near the end of the quarter

4) Ways to involve the entire sales team in setting quotas

5) How hitting quota impacts the entire company

6) Dissecting wins to help sales reps play to strengths and talents

Ben drinks a whiskey 🥃

I drink a canned cocktail 🍸

Specifically, we cover:

1) Struggling to balance IC work and managing others

2) Realizing a lack of documentation when onboarding new hires

3) Ways to improve communication between GTM and product on feature requests

4) Why normal marketers are different from event marketers

5) Trusting your founders and their direction for company growth

6) How Ben and I make decisions now based on learning from these failures

Ben drinks a coffee with whiskey ☕️

I drink a Chianti 🍷

Specifically, we cover:

1) Why Ben decided to structure the SKO the way he did

2) Connecting with employees to understand what motivates them

3) How trust at the leadership level plays into running these types of events

4) Fear and decision fatigue from marketers apparent at B2BMX

5) Navigating awkward conference convos

Ben drinks water 💧

I drink a Pinot noir 🍷

Specifically, we cover:

1) Why everyone was so excited about 2024 vs 2023

2) Continued budget concerns for 2024

3) How more stakeholders/ departments are involved in the buying process

4) A shift away from PLG to more wholistic self-serve buying

5) Why the market has been so competitive and ways to stand out

6) A divide in marketing strategies for 2024

Ben drinks a Coors Banquet 🍻

I drink a Chianti 🍷

Specifically, we cover:

1) How we sourced questions from our sales team for the report

2) Why we use first-party product data vs survey data

3) Ways we promoted the report and got early feedback

4) How we designed the report to make it more sharable

5) What we changed about this report vs last year's report

6) Fun games to help the sales team learn the data

Ben drinks a Coors Banquet 🍻

I drink a Cucumber Mint Cocktail 🥒

If you want to see the report: https://www.navattic.com/report/state-of-the-interactive-product-demo-2024

Specifically, we cover:

1) The origin story behind the Surv-ai-vor campign

2) How sponsors were brought in and decision process for big prizes

3) Our experience as a sponsor and why we decided to sponsor

4) Results from the campaign and the reactions from the sales team

5) How Mutiny's amazing brand awareness helped fuel the campaign

6) Takeaways from the campaign around virality

Molly drinks a rosemary gin and tonic 🍸

Ben drinks a Coors Banquet 🍺

I drink WeWork sponsored tea 🫖 

Hope you enjoy and happy holidays ☃️

Specifically, they cover:

1) Arthur's journey from sales to marketing and back to sales

2) How B2B selling has changed in the past few years

3) The perspective shift from switching from one role to the next

4) How marketing and sales organize their schedule and celebrate wins

5) What stereotypes hold up for each role

6) Which role is harder: sales or marketing

Arthur drinks an "Arthur Old Fashioned" 🥃

Ben drinks a Coors Banquet 🍺

Natalie drinks a pre-made Cosmo 🍸

Specifically, they cover:

1) How to group data into digestible cohorts for sales teams

2) What types of data reps look at right before a sales call

3) Ways to use tech stack enrichment signals during a live call

4) Issues with generic intent data lacking identity and context

5) Taking an account-based approach and working from high to low intent 

6) Shifting away from mass outreach to more precise messaging

7) Getting hands-on experience to get comfortable with data

Kevin drinks a ginger sparkling water 🫧

Ben drinks a Coors Banquet 🍻

Natalie drinks a Chianti 🍷

Specifically, we cover:

1) Why salespeople are often motivated by things like winning, money, and fear of failure

2) Finding out in the interview process what a sales rep is motivated by

3) Why marketers are often motivated by things like creativity, recognition, and a seat at the table

4) Ways to understand what motivates your team in a remote setting

5) How to adapt your motivation strategies depending on the person or situation

6) Using empathy and vulnerability to better connect with your team

Dee drinks a Coke Zero 🥤

Ben drinks a Hefeweizen beer 🍻

Natalie drinks a Cucumber Mojito 🥒

Hope you enjoy - Natalie (Head of Growth at Navattic)

Specifically, we cover:

1) The challenges of scaling processes and people as a company evolves

2) How founders and early employees must adapt as their roles change

3) Striking a balance between structure and innovation

4) Getting candid feedback from your team

5) Setting realistic goals when you have increased expectations

6) Keeping employees happy and engaged as the company grows

7) Maintaining the special sauce that fueled early traction

Ben drinks a Miller Lite 🍺

I drink a High Noon 🫧

Hope you enjoy! - Natalie (Head of Growth at Navattic)

Specifically, we cover:

1) My background and how I fell in love with marketing

2) Why I have chosen to be a solo marketer so far and the pros and cons

3) How I prioritize and manage requests with limited resources

4) My process to decide what tools or freelancers I need

5) Wins from my career including our approach to branding

6) Key learnings I have for other solo marketers starting out

Ben drinks a Coors Banquet 🍻

I drink tea out of a "Coffee is for Closers" mug ☕

Hope you enjoy - Natalie (Head of Growth at Navattic)

Specifically, we cover:

1) What drives B2B buyers' decisions

2) How much does positioning and branding affect buyer behavior

3) Three reasons why prospects choose one company over another

4) Pricing strategies and adjustments in a down economy

5) Why sales reps may be fearful of a brand overhaul

6) How to address the elephant in the room with leadership to fix a broken sales cycle

Ben drinks a Coors Banquet 🍻

I drink a Cucumber Vodka Mojito 🥒

Hope you enjoy - Natalie (Head of Growth at Navattic)

Specifically, we cover:

1) Why we're taking a little break from the podcast for the summer

2) How marketers are involved in a lot more and are much more analytical than they get credit for

3) Ways to use sales intuition to your marketing advantage

4) Why startups may want to hire a salesperson before a marketer

5) How we decided on our ICP in the early days of Navattic

6) Why we ended up making this podcast a year into working at Navattic together

Ben drinks an old-fashioned 🥃

I drink Josh red wine 🍷

Hope you enjoy - Natalie (Head of Growth at Navattic)

We talk all about how to ensure any new campaign or initiative is revenue driven and how to best collaborate on these initiatives with sales.

Specifically, we cover:

1) Why sales teams perceive marketing as not revenue driven

2) Balancing brand-building marketing with revenue-driven marketing

3) How to align on one single ICP

4) Strategies to get buy-in for new campaigns or tools

5) When is the best time to share results with sales

6) How to switch from an MQL to accounts based mindset

Brittany drinks a Sauvignon Blanc 🥂

Ben drinks an old-fashioned 🥃 

I drink Josh Cabernet Sauvignon 🍷

Hope you enjoy - Natalie (Head of Growth at Navattic)

We talk all about how to adopt a people-first approach to your sales and marketing strategy and how to create a sales process prospects actually enjoy.

Specifically, we cover:

1) Why B2B sales is usually so frustrating for prospects

2) How only listening to VCs and sales leaders at other companies can hurt your sales process

3) Ways to avoid a founder's "shinny object syndrome" through data and revenue-driven results

4) Strategies to get leadership on board with a people-first approach and how to overcome sales fears around it

5) Different compensation ideas for a people-first strategy

6) The future of the creator-economy and how it ties into a people-first approach

Nick drinks a Dunkin cold brew 🧊☕️

Ben drinks a Starbucks cold brew 🧊☕️

I drink tea 🫖

Hope you enjoy - Natalie (Head of Growth at Navattic)

We talk all about data, attribution, and the role of Revops in helping drive alignment - instead of damaging it.

Specifically, we cover:

1) How Revops can build trust with sales when they first join an org

2) Sales confusion around the role of Revops

3) Why sales is often less reliant on sales data or reports

4) Who should have access to dashboards and the best cadence to share data with sales

5) Best channels to get the most important insights to sales without distracting them

6) How attribution and compensation can harm the sales and marketing relationship

Peter drinks a spaghett 🍺

Ben drinks an old-fashioned 🥃 (Round 3)

I drink a mezcal margarita 🍹

Hope you enjoy - Natalie (Head of Growth at Navattic)

We talk all about product launches - how to make them successful and pitfalls to avoid.

Specifically, we cover:

1) Which sales reps are best to work with for product launches and enablement

2) Sales frustrations around lack of visibility into product launches and roadmaps

3) Whether or not you should incentivize or spiff product launches

4) Understanding the different pressures each team faces during product launches

5) Ways to get sales involved earlier through beta testing or engineering demos

6) How to have more empathy for team members during launches

Jason drinks Any Day IPA from local brewery Side Launch 🍺

Ben drinks an old-fashioned 🥃 (again)

I drink a Mojito 🍋

Hope you enjoy - Natalie (Head of Growth at Navattic)

We discuss why sales teams can be hesitant around PLG and how to reduce some of those fears as leadership and individual rep.

Specifically, we cover:

1) Blended PLG and sales-led strategies

2) Why PLG can feel like a loss of control for sales and marketing

3) Sales rep's frustration with PLG slowing down sales cycles

4) How to help reps embrace PLG and the benefits for sales teams

5) Ways to upsell and multi-thread within an account

6) When is the right time for a company to go PLG

Andrew drinks a Tommy Point IPA from his local Winter Hill Brewery 🍺

Ben drinks an old-fashioned 🥃

I drink a Rose 🍷

Hope you enjoy - Natalie (Head of Growth at Navattic)

We talk with Mark Huber - Head of Brand & Product Marketing at Metadata about sales content (testimonials, blog posts, one-pagers, etc) and how they seem to always be a source of frustration for product marketers.

Specifically, we cover:

1) Why sales reps constantly request different sales content

2) How to organize and prioritize content request

3) Re-usable content templates and slides for your sales team

4) Why some reps prefer content over others and why they create their own content

5) Most and least frequently used content by reps at Metadata and Navattic

6) How to create and repurpose customer-facing content

Ben and I drink beer out of our Surf Hut glasses 🏄‍♂️

Mark drinks bourbon from Rowans Creek 🥃

Hope you enjoy - Natalie (Head of Growth at Navattic)

Specifically, we cover:

1) How imposter syndrome shifts as your company hits different growth stages

2) Tips we've used to deal with imposter syndrome in our day to day

3) Overcoming the "How big is your company" objection

4) Tips for targeting and partnering with companies admired in your industry

5) Combatting burnout that comes from imposter syndrome

Hope you enjoy - Natalie (Head of Growth at Navattic)

Specifically, we cover:

1) The difference between Ben's and my approach to sales forecasting and quota setting

2) Challenges of presenting quotas to reps

3) How to create forecasting models that take into account economic uncertainty

4) Finding a balance between sales math and empathy when setting sales quotas

5) Protecting reps from burnout when setting targets

I drink a Langhe Nebbiolo 🍷 and Ben drinks a Chardonnay 🥂

Hope you enjoy - Natalie (Head of Growth at Navattic)

Specifically, we cover:

1) Why there is tension between sales and customer success

2) How a misaligned ICP contributes to that tension

3) Is marketing or sales ultimately responsible for filtering out bad quality leads

4) How to use churn data and an open line of communication to help hone in on your ICP

5) Tips on how sales and marketing can improve customer satisfaction once the customer is onboard

I drink a Sour Beer 🍋🍻 and Ben drinks a Chardonnay 🥂

Hope you enjoy - Natalie (Head of Growth at Navattic)

Specifically, we cover:

1) Why sales and leadership teams are typically scared of transparent pricing

2) What was our internal tipping point to move to public-facing pricing

3) How GTM teams benefit from public pricing

4) How our sales cycle has changed from public pricing

5) Tips on how to discuss pricing with your sales and leadership team

I drink another Cabernet Sauvignon 🍷 and Ben drinks a Coors Light 🍻

Hope you enjoy - Natalie (Head of Growth at Navattic)

Specifically, we cover:

1) Personality differences between sales and marketing

2) How to better understand and connect with your GTM counterpart

3) What to look for in a sales or marketing leadership hire

4) Why you need to trust your GTM leader

5) Tips on how we improved our sales and marketing relationship

I drink a glass of red wine 🍷 and Ben drinks a Bud Light 🍻

Hope you enjoy - Natalie (Head of Growth at Navattic)