Show Notes

*Join us for the second half of this year's Renovaré Book Club at a reduced rate as Pete Greig leads us through his book How to Hear God.

Pete’s book—How to Hear God: A Simple Guide for Normal People

Read an excerpt from How to Hear God.

24-7 Prayer (founded by Pete)

Lectio 365 Daily Devotional (co-hosted by Pete) 

Waverley Abbey

Scripture reference—the Emmaus Road story is found in Luke 24:13-35

Support the Life With God podcast and the work of Renovaré at renovare.org/donate.

Show Notes

Vivianne's Christmas Pie Recipe

Pie crust: Use whatever savory pastry recipe you usually make, adding some fresh or dried herbs, cut up (eg: thyme, rosemary, sage)

Filling:
You’ll need enough to fill each pie you’re going to make, which I usually eyeball as I mix and add ingredients into a very large mixing bowl, so that the total amount in the bowl is sufficient to fill the shells. Make the ratio as seems fit to you:

In a big bowl, combine:
Cooked turkey, shredded into chunky pieces, or cut
Cubed bread, preferably sourdough, preferably dry so that it doesn’t turn to mush, cubed. (You can toast cubes of fresh bread in the oven if you don’t have any stale bread)
Fresh cranberries, coarsely chopped, but raw (so that each berry is at least halved, but could be in quarters)
Diced apples

In a cast iron frying pan, set to low medium, cook a pound of bacon, slowly; I usually have to do this in two batches, and set on cutting board to cool before chopping into small pieces.
Keep the rendered fat from the bacon in the pan, turning the heat up to medium and adding:
A few diced onions, or a larger amount of leeks
A few diced potatoes (small diced)

Once potatoes seem tender but not soft, remove from heat, pouring onion and potato mixture into main bowl, along with bacon bits.

Stir the mixture to combine, adding a very generous amount of dried sage (I use at least 1/4 to 1/2 a cup for 2-3 pies. Add as you wish: pepper and salt.  Add one egg per pie into the main bowl, mixing thoroughly to moisten the mixture.

You will need a minimum of 6 cups of filing per pie you want to fill. Spoon mixture into pie shell, mounding it up in the middle. Cover with pastry top, and cut a few designs in the top to allow hot air to escape. Cover with foil and bake as per your usual preference for baking pies, or wrap in plastic wrap and freeze if you don’t plan on cooking within a day.

We usually set aside a family afternoon for assembling the pies and freeze them, then bake from frozen the day of Christmas. A fun part of our tradition is using Christmas cookie cutters to make designs appliquéd on top of the pie. Have fun!

Show Notes

Scott Erickson is an artist, author, and performance speaker who mixes autobiography, mythology, and aesthetics to create symbols and moments that speak to our deepest experiences.

He is the author of five books, the creator of two touring one man shows, a spiritual director to brave women and men, and a professional dishwasher for his food blogging wife.

He lives in Vancouver, WA and is most loved by his wife, three children, and two out of three cats. 

scottericksonart.com

Instagram - @scottthepainter

Show Notes

Brad East is an associate professor of theology at Abilene Christian University. He is the author of four books: The Doctrine of Scripture (2021),The Church’s Book: Theology of Scripture in Ecclesial Context(2022), The Church: A Guide to the People of God (2024), and Letters to a Future Saint: Foundations of Faith for the Spiritually Hungry (2024). He also writes regularly on his personal blog. He lives in west Texas with his wife and their four children.

Brad’s forthcoming book for pastors on navigating digital technology is due out in early 2027 with Baker. 

For other articles related to this episode, please see:

• A Vision for Screen-Free Church
• Just Say No to Online Church
• Finally, a Tech Book That Doesn’t Pull Punches

Grace Hamman, Ph.D. (Duke University) is a writer and independent scholar of late medieval poetry and contemplative writing. She is the author of Ask of Old Paths and Jesus through Medieval Eyes. Her work has been published by academic and popular outlets, including Plough Quarterly and The Journal of Medieval and Early Modern Studies. Grace hosts a podcast called Old Books with Grace which celebrates the beauty and joy found in reading the literature and theology of the past. Grace holds a doctorate in English, specializing in medieval literature and theology, from Duke University. She lives near Denver, Colorado with her husband and three young children.

https://gracehamman.com/

https://www.instagram.com/oldbookswithgrace/

https://gracehamman.substack.com/

Next Frontiers is a program that runs from January through November 2026, and is designed to help mid-career pastors thrive in congregational leadership during times of transition in ministry. The key features of the program include opportunities for reimagining our pastoral identity, fostering spiritual renewal and engaging in meaningful relationship with veteran ministers. The overarching purpose of this program is to provide resources that will sustain ministers in the “long obedience” of their profession. Learn more.

Show Notes

The song "Nerve to be Super (For Michael)," played during the episode, is from Julian's upcoming record, Vocation, which will be out in September.

Visit juliandavisreid.com to learn more about his various offerings, to book a Notes of Rest experience, or to learn about original music releases and records (such as Notes of Rest Hymns Vol. 1 and BEHOLD with the band The JuJu Exchange).

You can also find Julian's newsletter and stay up to date with news by subscribing at juliandavisreid.substack.com.

Show Notes

Resources by Rebecca DeYoung

• Article: “How to Practice Hope”
• Essay: “Why Are You Angry?”
• Talk: “The Seven Deadly Sins: Wrath”
• Scholarly publications: Available online here 

Other related resources recommended by Rebecca

• “Praying in the Dark” by J. Todd Billings—on lament, protest, and compassionate witness as ways to express our emotions without spiraling into despair. 
• Listen to an interview with Charlotte vanOyen Witvliet (a Christian psychologist and friend of Rebecca DeYoung) on moving forward in forgiveness. 
• ​​Aquinas on the vice of wrath
• Garret Keizer, The Enigma of Anger: Essays on a Sometimes Deadly Sin 
• Josef Pieper, "The Power of Wrath" in The Four Cardinal Virtues (Notre Dame Press), 193-197. 
• Robert C. Roberts, "Peace" in Spiritual emotions: a psychology of Christian virtues (Eerdmans),  165-178. 

Show Notes

• Bill’s book: The Way of Interruption: Spiritual Practice for Organizational Life
• Read an excerpt from The Way of Interruption
• Find Bill at billsimmons.net, hoperises.org, and LinkedIn.  

Bill Simmons is President and CEO of American Leprosy Missions (soon to be Hope Rises International), part of his two-decade journey leading national and international organizations. Bill brings deep insight to the intersection of organizational leadership and spiritual formation, and is currently pursuing postgraduate studies in spiritual formation at Gordon Conwell Seminary. Bill holds a BA from the University of Tennessee. Bill and his wife Cindi live in Greenville, SC.

Show Notes
James Catford joins Nathan to talk about Jean-Pierre de Caussade's 18th century classic book on trust, Abandonment to Divine Providence.

Join several thousand readers in the Renovaré Book Club to read Abandonment to Divine Providence (reading begins March 3, 2025).

• Join the club at a reduced rate 
• Purchase the hard copy or e-book
  
  

Where to find Matthew

• The Follower Podcast: https://wearefollower.com/podcast/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattlewis516/
• Follower Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/we_are_follower/
• Website: https://mattlewis.co.za

Matthew's book — Human: How our deepest longings lead us home

Show Notes

Rich Villodas is the Brooklyn-born lead pastor of New Life Fellowship, a large, multiracial church with more than seventy-five countries represented in Elmhurst, Queens. Prior to becoming lead pastor, he gave oversight to New Life’s small group ministry and served as preaching pastor. Rich graduated with a BA in pastoral ministry and theology from Nyack College. He went on to complete his master’s of divinity from Alliance Theological Seminary. He enjoys reading widely, and preaching and writing on contemplative spirituality, justice-related issues, and the art of preaching. He’s been married to Rosie since 2006 and they have two beautiful children, Karis and Nathan.

You can find Rich on social media @richvillodas 

The Narrow Path (Rich's new book)

New Life NYC (Rich Villodas' church)

Show Notes

The Scandal of the Kingdom Workbook

The Scandal of the Kingdom

Downloadable resources:

• The Foreword and Chapter One
• Chapter One of the Workbook
• Six-Part Sermon Series.

The original audio series (for The Scandal of the Kingdom) is being released week-by-week on The Dallas Willard Podcast.

Want to participate in a course on the book? You can join the interest list here.

Show Notes

You can find Sarah writing regularly at her Substack, From the Vicarage (sarahclarkson.substack.com) or discover her books at sarahclarkson.com

Recommended by Sarah

1. Free online version of The Light Princess and Other Fairy Stories 
2. Free online version of Princess and the Goblins, one of Sarah’s favorite children's novels by MacDonald
3. Free online version of Lilith, Sarah’s favorite adult fairy tale by MacDonald
4. Sarah’s friend, Dr. Amanda Vernon, is a MacDonald scholar and children’s literature enthusiast.
5. A website dedicated to books, articles, art, and music about, or inspired by, George MacDonald's sermons, lectures, poems, prose, and prayers.
6. Recent Word on Fire edition of The Golden Key.

Benjamin Myers is the Crouch-Matthis Professor of Literature and the director of the
Great Books Honors Program at Oklahoma Baptist University. A former poet laureate of
Oklahoma, he is the author of four books of poetry as well as of one previous and two
forthcoming books of nonfiction. His poems, essays, and stories have appeared in many
journals and magazines, including Image, The Yale Review, First Things, and Rattle.
He is a contributing editor for Front Porch Republic and lives in Chandler, OK. His most
recent book of poems is The Family Book of Martyrs (2023).

Show Notes

1. The "100 Days of Dante" project.
2. The entire Comedy without commentary. 
3. Ben's article “A Disgusting Poem on God’s Goodness.”  
4. Ben's book The Family Book of Martyrs.

Registration for the Renovaré Book Club 2024-2025 season is open!

• Celebration of Discipline by Richard Foster 
• Worth Celebrating by Mimi Dixon (Read an excerpt here.)

  Other articles, books, and podcast episodes by Richard Foster and by Mimi Dixon can be found at renovare.org

Show Notes

• The Mid-Faith Crisis Podcast
• Some of Nick’s Books 
• Nick Page on microblog

Show Notes

1. Book excerpts: 

• Practicing the Presence of Christ 
• An Habitual Sense of God's Presence
• Living Each Moment with a Sense of God's Presence

2. Lectio 365 Prayer App - A helpful way to re-orient to God's presence in the morning and evening.

3. Content from the Martin Institute's recent academic workshop, "A Crisis Among Us: The Problem of Christian Immaturity" is available here.

4. You can find Mariah's writing on Conversatio.org

• The Practicing of Presence. 
• A roadmap report on spiritual formation 

Julia Roller is an author and editor living in San Diego, CA with her husband and three children. She is also the MomCo Coordinator at Point Loma Community Presbyterian Church. Julia's most recent book is Mom Seeks God, but some of her other books include A Year with God (with Richard J. Foster), A Year with Aslan, and 25 Books Every Christian Should Read. Connect with her at her web site, juliaroller.com, or on Instagram Julia (@julialroller) or Facebook.

Julia's suggestions for continued reading:

1. In “How Should We Read?”, Christopher Hall discusses some ways to slow down our reading and ruminate over the text. I love that although Hall’s thoughts are inspired by a desert monk (of course they are, Chris!), one of his suggested techniques involves his smartphone. 
2. I can’t think of anyone who’s written as much about spiritual reading as C.S. Lewis, and Zach Kincaid’s “A Reading Life” post on the official C.S. Lewis site is an admirable compilation of some of Lewis’s best thoughts about reading. 
3. Lyle Smith Graybeal and I wrote “How to do Spiritual Reading”, an excerpt from the introduction for 25 Books Every Christian Should Read, to offer some practical ideas for spiritual reading as well as some reasons why we should all engage in it.
4. Richard Foster reflects on the books that shaped him as a young man in this article from Leadership Journal, “How Significant Books Become Good Friends.” Many of these books made the cut for 25 Books Every Christian Should Read. 
5. My discussion with Nathan inspired me to look critically at my own all-consuming reading practice. In examining my lifelong love of reading, I had to ask the question: “Is Reading Bad for You?” (See if you can guess my answer.) 

Show Notes

• The Mid-Faith Crisis Podcast
• Some of Nick’s Books 
• Nick Page on microblog

Adri-Marie's organization is called Tending the Fire. You can contact her at a3mvanheerden@gmail.com.

Show Notes

A few annotated book suggestions from John Paul:

• Cur Deus Homo — Anselm of Canterbury thinks about why God needed/chose to become human.
• The 3 Colors of Community, Christian A. Schwarz — How highly flawed individuals can use their propensity to sin to help build healthy Christian community.
• Fearfully and Wonderfully, Dr. Paul Brand and Philip Yancy — The human body (sick or healthy) can show us so much about the wonder of God and our human nature.
• The Shack, William Paul Young — God can heal the deepest wounds and betrayal.
• John's Gospel, John son of Zebedee — A look at life through the eyes of the beloved.
• Life of the Beloved — Henri Nouwen's beautiful consideration of the nature of Jesus' friendship.
• The Brother's Karamazov — Fydor Dostoevski's brilliant and crazy story of God's presence in a chaotic Russian family life.
• The Heart of the Parish, Martin Thornton — Seeing wherever you are as your parish and your life as filled with your neighbors and parisioners. Everyone.
• Hearing God — Dallas Willard's encouraging challenge to believe Jesus when he tells us we really can talk to God like we talk to one another.
• Reading the Bible with the Damned — Bob Eklad's believes that people on the margins often have intense experiences of God's involvement in their lives that are of biblical import.
• Letters and Papers from Prison —Dietrich Bonhoeffer's reflections on seeing God's loving presence in prison and how it transformed his thinking.

Show Notes

Books by Elizabeth Moore and Audrey Elledge

• Liturgies for Hope: Sixty Prayers for the Highs, the Lows, and Everything in Between
• Liturgies for Wholeness: 60 Prayers to Encounter the Depth, Creativity, and Friendship of God in Ordinary Moments

Also mentioned in the episode:

• Every Moment Holy (liturgy series by Douglas McKelvey and other authors)

Ways to connect with Audrey and Elizabeth:

Elizabeth Moore:

Instagram

Twitter

Audrey Elledge:

Facebook

Twitter

LinkedIn

Show Notes

• Desmond Tutu's Nobel Prize biography page
• Made for Goodness by Desmond Tutu
• Books by Trevor Hudson

Other Episodes With This Guest

• Ep 47: Trevor Hudson — Friendship with God
• Ep 73: Trevor Hudson — Holiness is Better Than You Think
• Ep 131: Trevor Hudson — Listen to the Groans
• Ep 154: Trevor Hudson — Meeting Christ in Our Tears
• Ep 153: Trevor Hudson — The Litmus Test for Lent
• Ep 215: Trevor Hudson and Jan Johnson — What Is Spiritual Direction?
• Ep 239: Trevor Hudson — Seeking God

Show Notes + Transcript

Nate: Lucy, we get to talk about your friend today. How did you first come to meet Madeline?

Luci: Well, Madeleine and I met originally at Wheaton College at a conference on, on literature, and she was a speaker and I was a speaker, and so we just happened to connect at that, at that time, and we discovered we had a lot in common.

Madeline had just written a couple of poems that she wanted published. So, since my husband and I had just started the publishing company, Harold Shaw Publishers, I asked Madeline if she would like us to publish her poetry. Which is one of the things we had planned to do, was publish poetry people of faith. So, we did. We published two of her books. One was called A Cry Like a Bell. And the other one was Oh, I can't even remember the name of it. But this was very early on. And we discovered the more we talked, the more we found we had in common. 

We loved Bach. We loved the music of Bach. We had a number of common friends. That was way back when. 

Nate: Now, was this before she'd written Wrinkle in Time?

Luci: She had written A Wrinkle in Time.

Nate: And then you two went on to write some books together.

Luci: That's right, yeah, we had our publishing company, and we were trying to publish, books by people of faith who had a literary bent. Anyway, that was the beginning of a really fruitful friendship. We found that, though Madeline had a number of people who were devoted to her and looked up to her, she didn't have many colleagues who were sort of meeting her at the friendship level, not just the sort of worshipful level that she had managed to accumulate.

So, the first book that we did together, I asked her to write a book on faith, how faith and literature work together. So she, at one point, handed me this very untidy typescript. Piles and piles of typed notes and possible chapter headings and so on.

So I had to just take the whole thing, pull it apart, I emptied my dining room, got the table out of the way, and started making piles. of different ideas that would flow together. We called it the Weather of the Heart. 

She needed someone who could sort of say, Madeline, you can't say that. You know, that's... not orthodox. We'll have to talk through that one. So, we did. We did a lot of discussion. She came from a very liberal background in New York City. I came from a very conservative background. And we sort of met in the middle and discovered that we loved each other's works. And we learned a lot from each other and through each other.

Nate: What did you learn from her? 

Luci: I learned to be a lot more open about what faith in God was all about. That you didn't have formulas by which to describe your faith. That this was a freeing thing, that the Holy Spirit of God could work in different ways. We just enjoyed each other's experiences with the Spirit of God. We shared so much. We found that working together was truly an act of worship to God. 

I remember after working through an entire manuscript, The Weather of the Heart, we finished all the copy editing and so on, we spontaneously stood to our feet and sang the doxology, "Praise God From Whom All Blessings Flow." 

Nate: What do you want people to remember about her?

Luci: I want them to remember that she loved God with all her heart. That she wanted to be God's child and servant. And I think that what I could bring to her was a sense that God was larger than either her understanding or my understanding of God. That God was so magnificent and so wide, in the ways we could reach to God through the Holy Spirit.

So it was a very Trinitarian friendship. She loved Jesus, and you know, the fact that God was both Jesus and also the Divine Creator of the world. 

Nate: How did you see her work influence people spiritually?

Luci: I think she asked a lot of questions that people had. People you know, had a lot of questions because God is knowable through various ways, but not always easily understood. And because Madeline had a very great respect for the Bible and for Holy Scripture, and she realized that, throughout Scripture, God speaks to us through metaphors.

God spoke to Moses with the Ten Commandments, but also through acts of grace and love. It was, an ongoing, free flowing relationship that God wants to have with us as his children, as his followers, and both Madeline and I wanted to have that characterize our life and our writing.

Nate: Mm-Hmm. . Do you miss her?

Luci: I miss her a lot. I think I was the only true friend she had at the level where we could be honest, really honest with each other. We rescued each other several times. 

Once she was in California speaking at a conference and she became very ill and was hospitalized. And I was living in the state of Washington. And she phoned me and she said, can you come down and be with me? So I went down to the hospital in Santa Cruz and spent three weeks. I lived in a motel nearby, and came in and spent time with her, telling jokes, writing things together, just conversing at the deepest level about what our lives were meant to be, and what was truly significant and important for us to believe and to do with our writing. 

And of course, I was a poet. She's a fiction writer. And sort of, we met in the middle, which was a really good place. We enriched each other at that wonderful level. 

I also got to know her family. I spent quite a bit of time visiting New York and staying with her in her apartment on the Upper West Side.

Most days we would walk over to the cathedral, Anglican Cathedral of St. John the Divine. And go to communion there at noon.

And that was the sort of thing that we were able to join in wholeheartedly with no reservations. But also, when we had questions, we were able to share our questions with each other and search what the great theologians had to say and what Scripture had to say about topics and about themes.

When we had doubts, when we had huge questions about what God was doing in the world. We could share those with each other and pray together. We did a lot of praying. 

Nate: Sounds like a really special friendship that you two had. What was the role she filled for you?

Luci: She filled for me a challenge. She would ask me to move beyond my evangelical faith and open up to various other questions about who we were to be in the world, how we were to reflect the Holy Spirit's wide ranging creativity in the world.

So we can be part of that flow of creativity that comes through the Holy Spirit into the created world.

Nate: What was she like as a person?

Luci: Well, she was quite-- she was, pretty strong minded. Yeah, she didn't suffer fools gladly, but she was very loving to people who were questioning, who were seekers after God.

I think one of the things that blessed me was that ...

Resources

• The Man Who Talks with the Flowers: The Intimate Life Story of Dr. George Washington Carver, by Glenn Clark 
• Essential Writings of the American Black Church, by John Hunt
• Tuskegee University
• He Saw That It Was Good, by Sho Baraka
• Album: ​“The Narrative,” Sho Baraka, 2016
• “Bravery to Faithfully Create,” article by Sho Baraka on renovare.org

Other episodes with this guest

• Episode 234 : Sho Baraka — He Saw That It Was Good

• Poustinia, by Catherine Doherty
• Catherine Doherty writes about prayer and sacraments as ways to welcome and know the presence of God in “First Meet God” 
• Luminous Lives, a Renovaré e-course hosted my Mimi Dixon

Visit Matthew Clark's website.

Books by Matthew Clark

• Tale of Two Trees  
• Only The Lover Sings 

Find Matthew's music on Spotify and Apple

Matthew's Podcast — One Thousand Words: Stories Along the Way

Sally Kendrick is a Maryland-based photographer with Carolina roots. She began experimenting with cyanotypes as a way of cultivating a habit of attentiveness to the beauty in the natural world around her. 

• Read Sally's essay "Attention Grows into Love" on renovare.org.
• True Impressions: Daily Prayers (artwork by Sally Kendrick) available for purchase or for free download.
• Sally has graciously offered some of her cyanotypes as downloads that can be printed locally.
• You can connect with Sally on Instagram at @turkeycreekprints.

  
  

Sarah's Website: https://sarahclarkson.com

Books by Sarah:
This Beautiful Truth: How God's Goodness Breaks into Our Darkness

Book Girl: A Journey Through the Treasures and Transforming Power of a Reading Life

Caught Up in a Story: Fostering a Storyformed Life of Great Books & Imagination with Your Children

The Life Giving Home: Creating a Place of Belonging and Becoming

Books by Mark Buchanan 

• God Walk: Moving at the Speed of your Soul
• David: Rise
• David: Reign
• The Rest of God: Restoring Your Soul by Restoring Sabbath
• Your God is Too Safe: Rediscovering the Wonder of a God You Can't Control 

Visit Mark’s website 

Renovaré resources with Mark Buchanan

• Webinar: Good Grief
• Article: “Being More Pedestrian”

• Read Katelyn's writing on Renovare.org
• Visit Katelyn's website

Brian's song that is referenced in the podcast conversation and played at the end of the episode is What Can I Do (lyrics below), from The Smallest Seed, released December 18, 2012. (c) All rights reserved.

Please give me grace to be weak
The moment I'm strong I get up and leave
Where am I going in such a rush anyway
My heart tap of love is running dry
Tried to fix it myself and clogged my mind
I'm knee deep and need Your touch to put things right

What can I do apart from You?

I made a god of self-control
Worshipped my will like it saved my soul
Made sacrifices but nothing satisfied it
Where is that 12 step meeting place
for addicts high on their own ways
I'm ready to surrender

I can build my house on the sand
A fragile façade where I can pretend
until one strong blow of your wind
I am left standing without any walls
And the Wind that just broke me breathes in my soul
the Breath of Life... oh…

Find more of Brian's music at morykon.com.

Find more Jan Johnson resources at janjohnson.org

Show Notes
[1:51] I am curious to know how you two discovered Sojourner Truth.

[4:26] How has her story impacted you two?

[10:08] What makes her credible?

[13:02] I think I know you two well enough to know that you're both open to having potentially difficult conversations about your experiences and about race. So what was that like for the two of you to explore Sojourner's life together?

[19:06] How would you like people to approach Sojourner's story?

[22:11] Could you share one [question from Sojourner that you’re sitting with]?

[23:10] What is your hope for people to take away from Sojourner's work?

 Resources:

• The Narrative of Sojourner Truth by Sojourner Truth, written by Olive Gilbert

• Beautiful Vessels by Bakht Singh, Sojourner Truth, Richard J. Foster, Tina Dyer, Grace Pouch

Show Notes

[ ] What has drawn you and fed you about her life? How did you discover her?

[ ] Is it accurate to say we might have lost some of these pieces of her work had it not been for your journey?

[ ] What I’m hearing, Miriam, is that you said Yes, and it reminds me a little of Lilias. She said Yes. Mimi, do you have any sense as to where she had the courage to say Yes? What did you hear in her words?

Resources

• A Passion for the Impossible, Miriam Huffman Rockness
• Parables of the Cross, by Lilias Trotter
• Creative Prayer, by Emily Herman
• The Way of the Sevenfold Secret, Lilias Trotter
• Many Beautiful Things (movie about the life of Lilias Trotter)
• Miriam Rockness website

What is visio divina, Viv?

And how do you do that?

What you're saying is that it's something we do all the time.—it's just taking a little extra pause or intentionality with what we're seeing?

Can I do visio with nature… look out my window?

What is your practice? Do you find a painting and say, “I'm gonna spend a half hour with this?”

So it would be a little like sitting down to read a book. I'm gonna sit down and read visually, like a painting or a scene. Is that how you would do it?

What is your practice for selecting a piece to use and how do you get a certain space in your house or what?

You mentioned you don't watch television. Does that tie in?

How does this fit into the practice of retreat, or does it?

How does that practice [of choosing art for a space] tie into retreat … for example, you've built a retreat house?

What do you look for when you go on retreat?

What kind of experiences are you hoping to craft with the retreats at the house?

...

Find out more about Vivianne's retreat house, Vilayala.

Show Notes 

[3:42] Could you share a little about Fénelon? 

[10:35] There’s almost a level of pain that one needs to feel in order to find the comfort... I wonder if it's a season of life, if you’re in a space where you’re really needing a kind of brokenness.

[11:57] I would go beyond identifying [pain]... It’s giving a map.

[13:26] Do you know his influences, what shaped him in his life?

[15:18] What were you hoping to do with the book?

[16:45] What did you learn from the project?

[19:56] Do you get any indication that he was a person of joy?

[21:28] You can dip in anywhere in his letters ... I will usually read one at a time and just sit with it, reading it multiple times before moving to another one. Am I doing it right?

[23:07] Thoughtful, honest pastor—this reminds me of another friend of ours beyond the grave. How would you connect him with Eugene Peterson? Would you?

[24:17] How are things with the Eugene Peterson Center?

Resources

• Let God: Spiritual Conversations with François Fénelon, by Winn Collier
• Let Go, by François Fénelon
• A Burning in My Bones, by Winn Collier
• Eugene Peterson Center for Christian Imagination

Show Notes

[4:38] Dad, could you give us an overview?

[9:38] Brenda, what was your journey like as you were reading the chapters and how did this work for you as a Christ follower and a pastor?

[17:08] Dad, the humble mumble – could you explain that? How did spending this year and writing the book tie into that?

[18:44] Brenda, as a pastor, I’m sure you get lots of compliments. How do you handle those when people have nice things to say about you?

[21:21] A lot of people don’t know how to say I’m sorry or own up to things. And that potentially stems from (a lack of) humility, doesn’t it, that my ego is fragile enough that I can’t handle critique?

[22:45] Humility is really about freedom, would you agree?

[25:21] You were in an environment (in the university) where people not only ask you, but they expect you to have the answers. And it can be the same in ministry. Brenda, in your context, where is the freedom you experience as you learn humility?

[27:55] Dad, what surprised you in writing this book and spending the year on it?

[29:45] What would you say to someone listening to this, or they’ve read the book, and they say “I’m in, I want to grow in humility”? What should they do? Where’s a good place to start?

[32:59] But we can certainly get better, right? There’s improvement to be made.

[33:43] For people who read the book, what would your hope be?

[36:01] The thing I found really helpful about the book, that snuck up on me, was the allure. Why wouldn’t I want that? Seeing it as an invitation to freedom, to become our true selves, the self that God created us to be.

Resources

• Learning Humility: A Year of Searching for a Vanishing Virtue, by Richard Foster
• Humility, a Renovaré resource with selections from Learning Humility and Humility (by Andrew Murray)

Show Notes

[2:15] Here’s a quote from Eugene Peterson: “The most extensive and inviting introduction … a brilliantly written book.” How did it feel to have read that about your book?

[3:49] Could you tell me what is a baron and who is said Baron that was so impactful on Evelyn’s life, and on Eugene’s too?

[6:56] What were [Von Hügel’s] health issues?

[8:59] Why did [Von Hügel] only want to see [Evelyn Underhill] twice a year?

[ ] What would you say were some of the key components in [Evelyn Underhill’s] own formation?

[ ] Who were some of these folks that were influencing [Evelyn]?

[ ] I find it helpful to hear [Baron Von Hügel] doing spiritual direction in a very different way than we think of it... What would you say were some of Evelyn Underhill’s contributions to the discipline of spiritual direction?

[ ] What about [Evelyn’s] life inspires you?

Resources

• The Spiritual Formation of Evelyn Underhill, by Robyn Wrigley-Carr
• Evelyn Underhill’s Prayer Book, by Robyn Wrigley-Carr

[0:57] What do you like about Chesterton?

[5:09 ] How would you describe Orthodoxy to someone?

[7:32] I’m struggling with the term “dense,” because it’s not boring...

[12:41] For some reason I hear Kurt Vonnegut in Chesterton – the satire, the unexpected. Chesterton surprises me.

[16:40] It seems like a cultural commentary that has a lot of relevance for today.

[18:45] What are one or two significant impacts Chesterton has had on your life?

[23:46] How do you think Chesterton would like to be remembered?

[24:51] Can you tell us a little about your book?

Resources

• Orthodoxy, G.K. Chesterton
• Chesterton and Tolkien as Theologians, Alison Milbank
• The Kingdom of God in America, Richard Niebuhr
• Jogging with G.K. Chesterton: 65 Earthshaking Expeditions, by Robert Moore-Jumonville

[3:02] You mentioned to me some time ago that you read this book every year. What’s that about?

[5:06] How would you describe A Testament of Devotion?

[6:23] What are the pieces this year that are ringing to you?

[8:37] As a spiritual director, how do you see people lean into that glow (of the Presence of God in each person)?

[11:23] Thomas Kelly talks a lot about “the light within,” very Quaker. Can you talk a little about what he means by that?

[12:25] How has this book influenced your life?

[14:47] What is a spiritual autobiography?

[18:48] There is this kind of tender, mystical side to him, poetic almost. What do you think?

[20:43] Your care and concern for little people…how has Thomas spoken into that?

[23:10] You have a children's book coming out. Can I ask you about it?

Resources

• A Testament of Devotion, by Thomas Kelly
• All Will Be Well: Learning to Trust God’s Love, by Lacy Borgo
• Revelations of Divine Love, Julian of Norwich, introduced and translated by Fr. John-Julian, OJN

Show Notes

[1:17] I’m curious, how long have you been a speed walker?

[2:09] What has your experience and practice been with walking?

[3:58] What did you learn from writing the book?

[5:48] What happens for you when you walk?

[7:58] A friend of mine gave me a quote: Those who work with their mind rest with their hands; those who work with their hands rest with their mind. I think of walking a little like I do silence—that it’s reliable.

[9:34] When you use the phrase “God speed,” what do you mean by that?

[16:08] What was your favorite chapter?

[22:06] What do you hope for people reading your book?

[23:03] You start the book referencing a friend of yours who is not able to walk. Could you give a word for people who are not able-bodied…?

[25:12] Are there other things you have learned from your indigenous friends?

[27:47] Any pilgrimages you have done or would like to do?

Resources

• God Walk, Moving at the Speed of Your Soul, by Mark Buchanan
• The Rest of God: Restoring Your Soul by Restoring Sabbath, by Mark Buchanan
• Three Mile an Hour God, by Koyama Kosuke
• The Reason You Walk, by Wab Kinew

Show Notes

[1:43] I’m curious to know how you discovered St. Ignatius and how he’s impacted your life.

[3:30] What was that experience like for you, personally, to go through the Exercises?

[4:59] For those listening who don’t know, could you just give us a brief description of the Exercises?

[8:09] You’ve been able to lead people through the Exercises through these years. What have you noticed?

[9:51] How did you discover Dallas [Willard], and how has he impacted your life? What did that friendship bring to you and your family?

[12:46] How did the idea come to write a book involving these two friends?

[15:59] Tell us a little about the book.

[16:57] The term seeker, at least in the States, is usually referenced in Christian contexts as a non-Christian that the church is wooing in. You’re working with this word far beyond that. What does it mean to you?

[20:00] When Debbie referenced you as a seeker, is there a tension in that? Does she mean it all in a positive sense?

[21:58] Was Dallas right in saying you wouldn’t be content?

[23:18] What does that look like to embrace the present moment?

[25:05] What did you learn from writing this book?

[27:00] What are you reading these days?

Resources

• Seeking God: Finding Another Kind of Life with St. Ignatius and Dallas Willard, by Trevor Hudson
• The Divine Conspiracy, by Dallas Willard
• The Master and his Emissary, Ian McGilchrist

Show Notes

[1:00] You recently went on a pilgrimage. Can you discuss pilgrimage as a spiritual practice?

[4:55] I love this question, where are you going and why? That sounds like a Jesus-type question. So is the point the destination, is this a kind of magical place that I go and I get a gold star from God for walking 300 miles? 

[6:23] So tell us – everything went wrong? Tell us about your experience. What was the plan?

[10:08] When I heard that it didn't go as planned, there was a part of me that was really sad because I know you had been preparing for this and it was really important. But I also had a little smile on my face because I thought, “Oh, Ted’s going to learn something, that you can only learn from having these disappointments, challenges.” Are there things you have been able to unpack from the experience that you’d be willing to share?

[17:32] What did you do with the grief of watching Duncan go on?

[19:50] Talking about humility, what were some of the new pieces that opened up for you?

[23:40] How have you made it 55 years without bumping into your limitations? There is a gift and a blessing in bumping into those. In reading my dad’s new book on humility that’s coming out later this year, he reaches the conclusion that it’s the foundational virtue for spiritual formation.

[25:20] How has it been wearing for you as you’ve been home for a while now?

[27:43] As we’re talking, I’m reflecting on the six months – you have really come in with a high level of humility, as a learner trying to partner with God, and that’s been neat to watch. Are there pieces in these months that you’ve learned, or things that might be helpful for people to know about Renovaré and your role?

Resources

• Learning Humility: A Year of Searching for a Vanishing Virtue, by Richard Foster (coming out December 2022)

[4:18] Can you share a little about your journey?

[7:51] What made a difference for you? How have you worked your narratives and what is that process like? 

[9:41] Many Christians know…the reality of some of the things you're saying. How do you move that from your head to your heart?

[11:52] When I see others as beloved image bearers, it makes it quite difficult to control or dehumanize them. There’s a freedom, isn’t there?

[13:52] In the book, after each chapter you have different practices—exercises—for people. Can you talk a little about those? 

[16:22] How do you invite God into that [practice of holy leisure—being rather than doing]?

[17:18] Are there other practices that have been helpful for you in your journey?

[19:08] How does that [practice of Sabbath] help with your narratives?

[20:17] What do you hope for people reading the book?

[21:10] I know there are a lot of folks who struggle with moving into their belovedness, because it can feel like self-help…What do you say to those folks?

[24:47] I’m curious, are there more Good and Beautiful… things you have in store for us?

Resources

• Good and Beautiful You, by James Brian Smith
• The Good and Beautiful book series
• The Apprentice Institute website
• The Apprentice Gathering event (September 22-24, 2024)

Show Notes

[1:00] I'm really curious to hear a little about your story.

[5:32] When there's a pressure in our life, there's a potential gift because we break… Do you find yourself grateful for that?

[8:33] To be willing to look at oneself with God—would you agree that there's a strength that requires from people?

[10:38] What would you like to see the Church do or become in terms of spaces that can handle brokenness or have a word in suffering?

[15:00] We can't take people there [on a healing journey] if we haven't been there ourselves. Would you agree?

[16:14] Do you “walk with a limp?”

[18:57] Have you found…that what often emerges in the healing is something beyond what you or others can imagine, that it's different and wonderful in ways we can't see?

[22:14] You mentioned community earlier. What is the role of community in this?

[24:50] When you were in the hospital…What would have been helpful from your friends there? What could they have done during that time?

[27:48] Could you share a little about the work you're doing with Healing Care Ministries?

[30:07] I'm curious, if you're willing to share, what was your encounter that you had with Jesus those many years ago?

Resources

• Healing Care Ministries website
  
  
• From Broken to Beloved, by Terry Wardle

• Some Kind of Crazy: An Unforgettable Story of Profound Brokenness and Breathtaking Grace, by Terry Wardle

• The Flame of Love, by Clark Pinnock

[2:08] Could you tell us a little about your book (its creation)?

[6:47] Could you say a little about help for creatives and what you hope to see?

[8:33] One of the things I noticed throughout your book is a concern with the devaluing of the oral tradition and folk stories in Christianity. Could you say a little about that?

[11:20] I’m wondering if there’s a connection [between devaluing oral stories] and losing some of the creativity in Christian life, church life.

[14:55] Your work in hip hop, is that carrying on the oral tradition? 

[21:03] Have you been to the African American Smithsonian?

[21:54] There is such a robust history and wisdom in the historical Black church that I feel is often lost on White America. Are there pieces of that tradition that you wish people knew or that you think would be helpful?

[25:11] Could you unpack the term “evangelical edit?”

[26:25] In your book you talk about a conversation you had with your daughter when she was seven, where she came and talked to you about her skin color and hair. Can you tell that story?

[29:51] What do you hope people will take from your book?

Resources

• He Saw That It Was Good, by Sho Baraka
• Album: “The Narrative,” Sho Baraka, 2016

Show Notes

[2:23] Could you tell us just a little about your love of Van Gogh?

[5:12] Could you talk about how you work with fiction?

[7:13] You go into spiritual direction not really knowing where this time is going to go, but being open. Do you take some of that same posture into your writing?

[10:46] You've gone there in terms of writing about pain and suffering and some difficult topics. What has that been like for you?

[13:20] What do you hope for the reader?

[14:23] Do you see yourself as a fiction writer?

[15:48] How does your work as a pastor and spiritual director inform your stories?

[18:18] Could you talk a little about spiritual friendship?

[22:46] What will that look like for you in Scotland … with these losses?

[28:33] Could you tell us a little about Abiding Way?

Resources

Feathers of Hope, by Sharon Garlough Brown

Abiding Way Ministries

Sharon’s website

Show Notes

• Who was Evelyn Underhill?
• Tell me a little bit about her prayer book prior to your visit to the retreat house.
• I’m hearing joy. Was it a joyful process for you?
• She does something bold, taking a prayer from some great Saint and adding her own lines, making her own contribution to it. I found that really special to get to have both people’s prayers together.
• Could you speculate what Evelyn might want people to do with this book?
• One of the things I found exciting is that, a number of the people’s prayers that she quotes I knew the names, but there were a bunch of them I don’t. And you give a little description of them at the end, and I thought, “New friends to explore!”
• Do you keep a prayer book?
• I’ve been collecting prayers for years, my own and others. And I love the idea of curating your own collection, that they all mean something to you. 

Resources

• Evelyn Underhill’s Prayer Book, by Robin Wrigley Carr
• The Spiritual Formation of Evelyn Underhill, by Robin Wrigley-Carr
• Music of Eternity: Meditations for Advent with Evelyn Underhill, by Robyn Wrigley-Carr
• The Letters of Evelyn Underhill, edited by Charles Williams
• Letters from Baron Friedrich von Hügel to a Niece, by Friedrich von Hügel
• Pleshy Retreat House

Show Notes

[:] You take a different spin of sorts on the topic of discernment. Could you share with us a little about some of your thinking on that? 

[:] What does a discerning life look like going beyond big decision-making? 

[:] What did that look like for you today to lean into discerning life? 

[:] You have a phrase in the book that I just love and it's “practicing a preference for God.” Can you talk a little about that?

[:] There's a sort of certain humility that is required to even look or ask. If I got it all figured out, I'm not necessarily going to look for God's opinion on something, right?

[:] The prayer I'll often do is, “Hey, if you've got an opinion here, I’m open.” It just feels good in a way, to go this isn't all about me, right? 

[:] There are other times where there’s an ease to it. Do you relate to that? 

[:] How do people know they’re on the right track?

[:] What does this look like for a leader? How does discernment work itself out in the day to day? 

[:] Leaders want to bring something, want to help, feel an internal or external responsibility to do such, but for you to bring listening, discerning—what you're doing is a ministry to your team, right?

[:] Share with me a couple of things going on with Leadership Transformations that folks could be involved with.

[:] One of your major contributions is the rule of life book. And then  the discernment book. Do those intersect?

Resources

The Discerning Life, by Steve Macchia

Crafting a Rule of Life, by Steve Maccia

Steve’s ministry Leadership Transformations

Show Notes

[2:21] Where did your love of words begin?

[4:52] Could you explain a little about how caring for words is a moral issue?

[6:34] How about words as art?

[9:15] You take this beyond writing and poetry—into normal conversation?

[14:41] How do you use words as a spiritual practice?

[18:53] What would you say to folks who are just beginning to think in terms of using words with some intentionality?

[21:54] Do you speak other languages? What does that change for you reading in languages besides English? Does it open up a different world for you?

[25:40] I was really moved by your section on felicity. When a word goes out of use in a culture, is it representative that that thing has gone out of use?

[27:55] Do you like Noam Chomsky and his work?

[33:09] What's your “one sentence” about the book?

[34:47] What gives you hope in our culture today, connected to words?

[39:02] What I was hearing was words as a way to love others, to love what's good and right, to care enough about the words we use. 

Resources

• Marilyn’s website: marilynmcentyre.com
• Books by Marilyn McEntyre (a sampling)
  • Caring for Words in a Culture of Lies
  • Speaking Peace in a Climate of Conflict
  • When Poets Pray
  • Make a List: How a Simple Practice Can Change Our Lives and Open Our Hearts
  • Word by Word, A Daily Spiritual Practice
    
    
• Richard Foster describes Lectio Divina
• “Politics and the English Language,” essay by George Orwell
• No Passion Spent by George Steiner

Show Notes

[1:11] There's an article in Christianity today about pastors that you had mentioned to me. Could you share a little about that?

[6:35] What are some things that you think might be helpful for pastors in this season? 

[17:40] And this happened after you let go of the franchise mentality?

[21:32] How does the phrase “first things” play in all this for you?

[25:55] Is that way of doing ministry realistic in this day and age?

[27:58] I’m thinking of when you asked Dallas if he sinned. Could you share with folks the answer?

[36:16] Would you be up for giving a prayer for folks that are in ministry? 

Resources

• Renovaré Retreat for Pastors
• “First and Second Things,” God in the Dock pp. 278-280, by C.S. Lewis

Show Notes 

[2:53] I caught wind that you were really pushing to get this position. Is that accurate? 

[5:51] What changed, to get you in a position where you actually did apply and follow through?

[8:23] How are you feeling about coming into the position?

[8:54] What first drew you to Renovaré as an organization?

[11:25] What was your experience like with the Renovaré Institute?

[13:06] How do you see your background as a consultant helping your work at Renovaré?

[15:49] What do you think it will look like in the coming years?

[19:23] I believe it was Carolyn who asked you, “Well, first hundred days, what are you going to do?” And I believe you just said “listen,” right?

[20:19] You don’t come in with an agenda. Is that accurate?

[20:44] What excites you about this position?

[23:20] What concerns you about stepping into this role?

[25:48] Favorite books?

[27:35] What’s this business about bread? 

Show Notes 

[1:40] Are you tired of talking about Eugene now? And if so, why? 

[2:26] What do you think Eugene would think about the biography coming out and all the interviews and such? 

[3:32] I'm curious to hear, how did you come to write the book, be the biographer? 

[8:31] What surprised you in that journey? 

[9:39] Eugene was like the anti celebrity, but yet in a sense he was the perfect celebrity, because their hospitality… I've heard so many stories of people who they just invited in. 

[11:43] I found it delightful that at the beginning of the book there’s the map of Montana, and it kind of has that, you know, Tolkein feel to it. How important was place, for Eugene?

[14:51] How much do you think some of his thinking was influenced by [his mom]? 

[18:37] What do you hope people remember about Eugene? 

[20:52] Do you have a favorite story from the book? 

[24:30] Eugene did pauses when he talked. What was that like for you when you were interviewing him? 

[32:40] It sounds like a number of these values Eugene and Jan embodied you're trying to lean into ... Could you tell folks a little about what you're up to there in Holland, Michigan? 

Resources

• The Eugene Peterson Center for Christian Imagination
• Pastor Theologians Podcast
• Connect with Winn Collier on winncollier.com
• Winn’s book A Burning in My Bones (This is the next book featured in the Renovaré Book Club.)

Show Notes

• [2:11] Can I tell you about how I discovered Van Gogh?
• [4:18] When did you first begin to love Vincent’s work?
• [7:25] What do you think Vincent was trying to say to people?
• [10:06] Those doors [of pastoral ministry] were closed for him, correct?
• [15:13] I’ve always been curious about Starry Night. The church light… why is it out?
• [16:56] What was it like to sit in Nouwen’s class in 1979?
• [19:05] The compassionate life… can you speak a little about that?
• [22:08] Did you get a sense of Henri’s favorite Van Gogh painting?
• [24:06] Is there any connection you see between the two [men’s lives]?
• [26:51] The end of Vincent’s life… what do you make of how things turned out for him?
• [29:33] You did another book on the spiritual life of Vincent. Can you tell us a little about that book?
• [31:01] How did these two men impact your life?
• [33:14] There’s an honesty in Vincent’s work that I don’t understand, but I think he told the truth. What are your thoughts on that?

Resources

• Learning from Henri Nouwen and Vincent van Gogh: A Portrait of the Compassionate Life, by Carol Berry
• Vincent Van Gogh (Modern Spiritual Masters), by Carol Berry
• Connect with our friends at the Henri Nouwen Society
• Renovaré Podcast Episode 63 with Deirdre LaNoue - The Spiritual Legacy of Henri Nouwen

[3:05] What is it that you care about these days?

[6:16] You wrote a book about one word. Tell us about the book.

[9:22] What does the word mean to you personally?

[10:31] How do you live into it?

[15:05] I’m noticing in your writings and in your music this love of Scripture. Where did that come from?

[18:31] What do you hope people take away from the book?

[22:25] How do you personally work with Scripture these days?

Resources

• Inexpressible: Hesed and the Mystery of God’s Lovingkindness, by Michael Card
• Michael Card’s website
• “Hymn to the Kindness of God,” from his album To the Kindness of God

Show Notes

[1:19] What was the impetus for this book?

[3:57] I'm glad to hear you reference the pandemic in this way. It has really baffled me how silent people are in terms of its effects. I think it’s going to take 5 or 10 years out of this to realize some of the ways that it has negatively impacted, and I wish people talk more about it.

[8:25] What do you think people should do (to heal their trauma response)?

[15:23] I think I’m hearing that instead of coping mechanism that don’t yield fruit or good results, but coping mechanisms that bring life.

[19:50] I really like the idea of benevolent detachment.  How do you detach and yet use your ability to change for good?

[24:26] One of the phrases I’ll use is trusting people to God.  As much as I would like to control and manage things, there are some limitations.

[25:06] What does this look like for you, and what are some of the challenges you face in moving into benevolent detachment?

[30:33] Why do you think so many Christians are hung up on the idea of hearing from God?

Resources

• Get Your Life Back: Everyday Practices in a World Gone Mad, by John Eldredge
• Beautiful Outlaw, by John Eldredge
• The One Minute Pause app

Show Notes

• How did you discover John Woolman’s Journal?
• What was it, as a college student, reading Woolman’s journal?
• Woolman’s first experience with slavery.
• The story of Benjamin Lay.
• Woolman dealt with the three great isms of our day: racism, militarism, and consumerism.
• Could you help folks understand a little about Quakerism and the Friends?
• Tell us about your doctoral dissertation.
• What would you hope for people reading the book to take away from it?

Resources

• The Journal and Major Essays of John Woolman, edited by Phillips P. Moulton
• Join the Renovaré Book Club to read Woolman's book in December 2021

Show Notes 

[1:24] Why do you write?

[2:19] How important is it for you to be honest in your writing?

[8:21] Could you share a little about your draw to the wonder and mystery in nature?

[10:38] How are you in nature, in terms of observing and being?

[12:37] What is it about seasons that you’re drawn to?

[15:06] Make the connection between your experience growing up and appreciating nature and scripture.

[18:04] What are some rhythms or practices for you, being in the created order?

[21:44] How did your book, Turning of Days, come to be?

[24:55] This summer in Colorado the wildflowers were off the charts. I’ve tried learning their names, and the names of the trees. I found in being able to name them, it enriched my experience. Is this a similar experience for you? Am I on the right path?

[29:55] In which Hannah reads a selection from Fall: Section 7 (p. 116)

Resources

• Turning of Days: Lessons from Nature, Season, and Spirit, by Hannah Anderson
• Humble Roots: How Humility Grounds and Nourishes Your Soul, by Hannah Anderson
• Hannah’s website, Sometimes a Light

Show Notes

[2:13] What was it like for you to write this book?

[5:07] As you’ve been aging, what has been happening in your soul?

[7:56] It’s interesting that the idea of living within our limitations is seen as a negative and something to be fought. Is part of aging learning to live within the limitations that have now presented themselves?

[9:58] As you are talking about your limitations, you’re smiling. How have you gotten to that place where this is not something to be fought and hated, but embracing where you’re at?

[14:29] In the book you talk about productivity and fruitfulness. Can you share about those things?

[17:51] Do you have a word for folks who are really struggling with navigating aging?

[25:57] Why do we fight growing older?

[27:52] You wrote a book on the Enneagram. How is that helpful in aging?

Resources

• Aging Faithfully: The Holy Invitation of Growing Older, by Alice Fryling
• Mirror for the Soul: A Christian Guide to the Enneagram, by Alice Fryling
• Alice's Website

Show Notes

[2:38] I really liked the subtitle you guys came up with for the book. The book is Everyday Sabbath: How to Lead Your Dance with Media and Technology in Mindful and Sacred Ways. It’s a wonderful way to say everything that’s in the book. Tell us a little about the book.

[6:32] Could you unpack a little when you say “dance with pop culture?”

[8:27] Part of what I’m hearing in this dance is to be intentional, to not be a victim. How have you learned to take the lead in the dance?

[9:45] So if I conclude that I’m scrolling through stuff for reward or relief, does that mean I stop?

[11:00] One of the things I appreciate about the book is that this is road tested. The other piece I found helpful is the practices. Could you talk a little bit about how spiritual practices tie into our dance with pop culture?

[18:53] Do we know how to steward our boredom?

[20:10] Historically, when has the term binge ever been positive?

[22:08] A while back we did a podcast on your habit of memorizing, of stewarding the stirrings of your soul. Are you still doing this?

Resources

• Everyday Sabbath: How to Lead Your Dance with Media and Technology in Mindful and Sacred Ways, by Paul Patton and Robert Woods, Jr.
• Renovaré Podcast Episodes with Paul Patton: Leading the Dance with Pop Culture, Story and the Importance of Memorization, We All Have Secrets
• Soul Stirrings Podcast with Paul Patton

Show Notes

[2:55] Why is the Sermon on the Mount so important to you at the Bruderhof community?

[7:18] Tell me a little about your process of making decisions about what to put in the book and what not to.

[10:40] I I'm a little embarrassed to admit that I have failed to grasp how this really was spoken to community and meant to be lived out in community. I'm really curious to hear what that looks like for you guys to try and live this out, and practically, day to day what this looks like.

[14:55] In compiling all the essays, were there new insights that you gained personally or different ways in which you begin to see the sermon on the Mount?

[19:05] Do you have a favorite?

[21:08] Give me your hope for readers. What is your hope for this book?

[24:00] Could you let people know a little about Plough? 

Resources

• Following the Call: Living the Sermon on the Mount Together
• Bruderhof Community

Show Notes

[2:08] Your church has a logo of an iceberg. What’s that about?

[4:28] Tell us about your book, The Deeply Formed Life.

[8:03] Could you talk about each section of the book?

• Contemplative Practices
• Racial Justice and Reconciliation
• Sexual Wholeness
• Missional Presence

[28:12] How was writing this book helpful for you?

Resources

• The Deeply Formed Life
• Renovaré Book Club

• For spiritual direction resources and the full unedited replay, visit the webinar page.
• Browse previous Renovaré Podcast conversations with Jan Johnson and Trevor Hudson

Show Notes

[2:12] Could you share with us about the Waverly project you’ve been working on for the past 5 years, and also about Order of the Mustard Seed.

[10:45] What does it look like for you personally to hold those practices and values in front of you.

[19:50] What do you say to people who are carrying a lot and not having room to go beyond their own family or the struggles that they are in? A friend of mine (Bill Vaswig) taught me much about prayer. When I go into certain spaces where there is so much suffering, and I’m just overwhelmed by it and don’t know what to do, he said, “Nate, you’re supposed to pray. You see all this so you can pray. Just walk around and lift them up.”

[25:25] What is your hope for the community at this old abbey; what would you like to see happen in the years to come?

[33:28] How does discernment work in your community? When you make a decision to move forward, what does that process look like?

[40:35] You can extend this to a church, ministry, family, or small group, to pause and ask if there are apologies that need to be made or repentance. God seems so intent on his children playing well together.

Resources

• Jill Weber on Episode 187: Holy Disruption
• 24-7 Prayer
• Order of the Mustard Seed
• Ruth Haley Barton, Pursuing God’s Will Together
• Richard Foster, Prayer: Finding the Heart’s True Home
• Transforming Center

The Prayer of Relinquishment

Show Notes

[5:45] Why leaders? What was it in you that you felt to compelled to move in that direction?

[9:55] What are some of the challenges that leaders in the Christian community face today?

[13:20] I’d take it a little further and say that in our current society it’s a virtue not to rest, to keep pushing through. How does a leader break out of that system that is pulling them do to more and more, and of being more closed, of not sharing or not feeling safe or that there is space to share?

[18:10] All three of you provide safe spaces for people. What would you say to someone who's not connected to a program or ministry that’s caring for their soul, who really wants to be open, vulnerable, honest? How do you do that when you’re surrounded in a community that needs you to have everything together?

[25:17] When we rest or slow down, sometimes emotions come up, and that’s quite normal. This is a unique season in history that is an opportunity for a reset, a chance to make some shifts. How can lay folk best help their leaders?

[31:45] What is the Biblical view of sabbatical?

[33:00] These 3 pieces of covenant and support and sabbatical – What if elder boards demanded a sort of health; not just encouraging sabbatical (and boundaries and rest and health) but demanding it, setting it as a way we’re going to be as a ministry. I think sometimes people just need a little permission to move into some of this.

[37:25] Do you have any thoughts for leaders or families on how to do this well?

[42:50] Can you paint a picture of a leader who’s doing things well, who’s functioning with health and being effective for the Kingdom. What does their life look like?

[47:26] How do you guys, as leaders, care for your soul?

Guest Websites

• Alan Fadling at Unhurried Living
• Kristi Gaultiere at Soul Shepherding
• Steve Macchia at Leadership Transformations

Show Notes

[1:10] What was Jesus doing with these weird sayings, these Beatitudes?

[2:15] How do you think it was received by the hearers?

[4:38] In your work, you have 2 lines: “this is a new way to be human,” and “a journey back to reality.” Where do you take the Beatitudes for us today?

[6:15] Could you address this idea of our first instincts and new postures?

[11:40] Is there one that has been the most challenging or difficult?

[20:35] Is there a movement toward a practical practice as we move into this reality?

[22:50] This book was born out of practical labs. Can you tell us a little about that?

[25:50] What would you like to see happen for those who read the book?

[26:35] In your travels around the world, what have you picked up from Christians around the world that would be helpful for us in the West?

Resources

• Mark Scandrette’s Website
• The Ninefold Path of Jesus: Hidden Wisdom of the Beatitudes
• The Ninefold Path Learning Lab

[1:08] I’m really interested to know how a philosophy professor ends up writing a book on anxiety and depression.

[3:53] The other thing you do that I found really helpful is that you address a lot of concerns that Christians might have about mental health or medication or self-compassion. Have you found that to be well-received or have you gotten pushback from that?

[5:35] One of the pieces that I found really helpful in the book is you continue to go back to all these practices and very practical things that have worked for you, yet leaving it open for not being totally prescriptive for people. I'm curious to hear a little about your journey with contemplative prayer and how that has helped you with anxiety.

[8:00] Could you say a little about the four-step solution process?

[16:50] What was it like to crash for all those months? Are you healed?

[22:10] How important were Biblical passages for you?

[22:40] What would you say to someone listening who is really struggling with anxiety and maybe has some self-condemnation or shame around it?

[28:45] For folks who have friends and family, spouses, that are struggling with anxiety, is there a word you might have for the best way they can love each other through this?

Resources by J.P. Moreland:

• Finding Quiet: My Story of Overcoming Anxiety and the Practices that Brought Peace
• jpmoreland.com

Show Notes

[3:35] How did you get into music professionally?

[6:32] What do you like about music?

[8:00] When you are leading worship, what do you hope is happening?

[10:57] Why is the word worship synonymous with music?

[12:34] You’ve created a masterpiece that we get to talk about today, and I’m very curious to know how this came to be.

[15:48] Why do you think is helpful for folks to catch this big picture of the worship of Christians through the ages?

[17:58] Do you have a favorite era in church music?

Resources

• George's six part presentation The History of Worship.
• Article: The Story of Worship
• Article: Finding the Heart of Worship

Show Notes

[2:40] Where did the title of new book, Angels Everywhere, come from?

[3:37] The Generosity – where did that title come from?

[7:55] Would it be safe to say that your dad was a kind of inspiration and helped encourage you as a poet?

[12:48] How has your writing as a poet changed through the years?

[15:21] How would you like people to read your poetry?

[16:42] In which Luci reads a poem she wrote yesterday called April.

This day,
this springy day,
I claim the never-ending
Sky for ceiling
And in the little rooms of my life
I cultivate seasons
As if they are flowering vines
Growing across my bedspread.

And grapes maybe,
Or seeds,
Our promises of July
Sleeping underground
Waking and awakening
A green resurrection.

On all our ancient trees
Rising sap
Has thickened the twigs
Until they sprout a thousand
Honey colored catechins
Heavy enough to swing in the wind,
Flinging in the bursts of wild air
Their lusty spores.

Pollen,
Though it may be an affliction,
Promotes new life
And the cherry trees exploding
With their frothy pink blossoms.

It is all joy,
All gratitude,
All grace.

[19:42] What was it like working with Madeleine L’Engle?

[22:45] In which Luci reads a poem she also wrote yesterday called Daybook:

This day is a book still unfolding,
a suspense novel—
we recognize the genre
with clues from the morning paper.

We are beguiled by the headlines
of sun struck clouds
and dew wet enough
to rinse our hands in.

The plot is original.
We can only guess
how it will turn out.

So we follow the narrative arc,
reading it through
the burn and blaze of high noon
all the way to the last page.

Until like an ancient writer
the night writes fini
and the stars endorse
the grateful author.

[24:51] What would you say to folks who are thinking of writing poetry or beginning?

[30:26] In which Luci reads Pilgrim from The Generosity:

Meaning is a landscape
Of boulders.
There, ahead of you,
A thorny wilderness.
You cannot leap over it. You
Must conquer it stone by stone.

To traverse it,
You must find sure footing
And fortitude
In uncertain weather,
Your fear like metal
In your mouth.

And yes, it is possible
To walk the knife edge of longing,
A blade narrow
As the path to heaven.

Resources

• Cosmos from Chaos: Renovaré Webinar with Luci Shaw and Andrew Peterson
• Luci Shaw's Website
• The Generosity from Publisher or on Amazon
• Angels Everywhere
• People Luci mentions:
  • Clyde Kilby
  • Mark Jarman, poet
  • Andrew Hudgins, poet
  • Carolyn Forché, poet
  • Eugene Peterson, The Message (esp. Psalm and Wisdom book)
  • Winn Collier, A Burning in My Bones (Eugene Peterson biography)

James is facilitating the Renovaré Book Club starting in April 2021.

In the episode, you'll hear Richard Foster and Dallas Willard introducing the book at the 1999 Renovaré International Conference.

Show Notes

[10:32] How has William Law’s book been helpful to you?

[12:45] How did the intersection of work and spiritual life play out for you?

[14:59] Did you find integration?

[20:53] In a culture that wouldn’t be drawn to the title, ironically there is grace in this.

[22:16] What are some of the considerations, culturally, that people should come at this book with?

[24:40] He presents the idea that everything is sacred. Where does beauty come in?

[26:36] How does Law’s view of holiness lend itself to engaging with beauty, or does it?

[29:15] In a sense this is a work that helps us move closer into being people who function well.

Resources

• A Serious Call to a Devout and Holy Life (this is the version being used for the Renovaré Book Club)
• O Worship the Lord in the Beauty of Holiness

In this episode, Nathan and Keith discuss Dallas Willard's thoughts on character, his legacy, and the work being carried on through Dallas Willard Ministries, the Dallas Willard School of Kingdom Living, and the newly formed Dallas Willard Publishing.

Show Notes

[6:00] Tell me the story of when you first met Dallas.

[9:50] What did you learn from him?

[14:20] He was once asked what one of the defining characteristics of Jesus life was, and he answered with the word relaxed, is that correct?

[19:35] Many people have picked up and are working with his work and ideas. Are you encouraged by that? Do you see holes or things that are lacking?

[22:00] What does that look like for you, living daily with Christ?

[23:40] On Dallas Willard Publications, how is it going and are there books in the works? Do you have a favorite Dallas book, or one you would recommend to people who have not read him before?

[28:40] Tell us about the Dallas Willard School of Kingdom Living.

Resources

• The Divine Conspiracy
• The Great Omission
• Renewing the Christian Mind
• Dallas Willard Ministries
• School of Kingdom Living

Show Notes

[1:00] Tell us about your new album Recognition. Many of the songs feel like Renovaré-birthed songs.

[4:30] Did I have something to do with the idea behind the song Maladjusted?

[7:30] How do you decipher a cultural value that is not necessarily a kingdom value? How do you sift through what you should adjust to and what you shouldn't?

[12:40] Carolyn plays Malajusted

[14:25] What is behind the song To Cry for You?

[20:40] Grief is a good topic to be talking about now as people talk about our experience with the pandemic as grief. One of my favorite quotes is "feelings always come out." There is something about allowing ourselves to be in the suffering that births an ability to be in the blessing, the goodness, the gift.

[24:15] Carolyn plays To Cry for You

[25:50] Look for Carolyn’s new project – In the Morning - an acoustic worship album with songs that help unlock our hearts to what God wants to do in our midst.

Resources

• CarolynArends.com